Poll: Power creep in 3.5, how significant?

[blargney the second]

power catch-up.

Great term. Mind if I steal it?
-blarg

 

[brehobit]

I guess the rest of the party is playing commoners? Or could you elaborate on what the rest of the party is playing, because that makes a difference in this discussion.

Sure,
One standard vanilla ranger, and one warlock without the fey feats (instead has point-blank, precise shot, and something else). The fey warlock and the barb/swordsage are much much better warriors than the ranger.

For the fey warlock it turns out that DR 4/cold iron is pretty crazy at level 4. Very few attacks at that level average more than 8 points of damage, and some are closer to 4-5 (which he ignores). He's gotten hosed by shadows, ghosts, a specter, and a lighting bolt throwing sorc. But against everything that does a normal attack he's taken at most half damage. He does damage generally via hideous blow which is darn effective (though requires a concentration check unless he is using a reach weapon).

The swordsage can:
* Ignore most terrain modifiers (some stance). This has helped a LOT in a few combats.
* Ignore flank someone from any angle (a different stance).
* Rage 3/day (extra rage feat)
* Hit 1/combat for +2d6 damage (and ignore DR should that matter)
* hit 1/combat for 4d6 fire damage (touch attack) someone who has hit him (swift)

The rage+2d6+4d6 fire means that he can hit an opponent for 2d6+1 (sword) + 7 (16 STR+rage) +2d6/ignore DR +4d6 (fire) at 5th level. That is one round at 36 points of damage. Not bad for 5th level. After that he's down to 2d6+8 until the rage ends.

The ranger does d8+4 damage with one weapon and d6+2 with another. If both hit (and he has a -2 for attacking with both) he is doing 14 points of damage. AND he has twice as much money in magic weapons (2 +1 weapons). The swordsage has 1 less BAB but he get's weapon focus for free, so that's a wash. So that means the ranger has a lower attack bonus AND does less damage than the raging barbarian AFTER the swordsage craziness has been used up! Both are light armor (this swordsage, for RP reasons, has an 8 Wis so no AC bonus).

The non-fey warlock is quite effective at range, hitting most rounds, but does 3d6+1 damage (11.5). Not bad, but he drops quickly (just died last combat in fact) and without the DR to eat damage has a real problem against mooks. (d8+1 damage does 5.5 against him, about 1.8 against the fey warlock)

Now the warlock itself is "non-core". But I find it (like most of the first 4 complete books) to be fairly balanced. Extra rage is VERY powerful indeed (Complete Warrior), and the swordsage is just broken beyond compare (I will ban them after this).

Mark

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

For the fey warlock it turns out that DR 4/cold iron is pretty crazy at level 4. Very few attacks at that level average more than 8 points of damage, and some are closer to 4-5 (which he ignores).

After a few more levels it will largely be meaningless though.

The ranger does d8+4 damage with one weapon and d6+2 with another. If both hit (and he has a -2 for attacking with both) he is doing 14 points of damage. AND he has twice as much money in magic weapons (2 +1 weapons). The swordsage has 1 less BAB but he get's weapon focus for free, so that's a wash. So that means the ranger has a lower attack bonus AND does less damage than the raging barbarian AFTER the swordsage craziness has been used up! Both are light armor (this swordsage, for RP reasons, has an 8 Wis so no AC bonus).

Two weapon fighting sucks unless you get a ton of extra damage dice (sneak attack etc). Its pretty much always sucked since 3rd edition was released, and the double damage from power attack for 2 handers sealed the coffin. Also the swordsage isnt a pure swordsage. Throw a barbarian level on the ranger (and the extra rage feat, which is too good to pass up), and see how he stacks up. Its not that the swordsage is overpowered (its a balanced non caster combatant), its that you're comparing him to a secondary combat class using a bad fighting style. Also, the swordsage is going to appear stronger at this level. Everyone is just getting one attack anyways, so getting a single attack on a maneuver isnt a noticable drawback.

Additionally, rangers kind of stink at combat against things that arent their species enemy, as they are about on par with an aristocrat. I gave them two feat trees (adding in a 2 handed option and weapon/shield melee options), and let their favored enemy bonus apply to attack rolls to help out. Also, if you make weapon focus work with a damage type (slash, pierce, etc), you at least let a 2 weapon user get the weapon focus benefit with both weapons without forcing them to downgrade their primary hand.

 

[MerricB]

Its not that the swordsage is overpowered (its a balanced non caster combatant), its that you're comparing him to a secondary combat class using a bad fighting style.

QFT.

Heck, compare the ranger to a Barbarian 4 and see who is better.

Rangers using TWF need bonus damage from somewhere; against their favoured enemy TWF is better, otherwise use flaming weapons, etc.

A Ranger 3/Rogue 1 tends to do much better.

Cheers!

 

[Aus_Snow]

If the fighter isn't up to snuff, why *not* just write a replacement and have done with? It seems like a cleaner solution to me than going with patchwork repair.

Providing some good high-level feats to a feat-based class, that previously had no high-level feats truly worth taking, is not exactly "patchwork repair". It's simply building on the class's signature strength, without altering or introducing any base rules whatsoever.

Fighter is the most generic base (PC) class. Providing a bit of a boost to any other class is going to be more complicated, and therefore more likely to bring further imbalances with it.

 

[Shadow_Fox26]

For the fey warlock it turns out that DR 4/cold iron is pretty crazy at level 4.

Fey Skin reads: "You gain damage reduction (overcome by cold iron) equal to 1 + the number of feats you have that list Fey Heritage as a prerequisite"

At level 4, there are only two Fey Heritage feats (not counting the base Fey Heritage) that you can qualify for (Fey Skin and Fey Power). This would mean that the DR is 3, not 4, as Fey Skin does not check Fey Heritage, just feats that list it as a prerequisite.

Very few attacks at that level average more than 8 points of damage, and some are closer to 4-5 (which he ignores). He's gotten hosed by shadows, ghosts, a specter, and a lighting bolt throwing sorc. But against everything that does a normal attack he's taken at most half damage. He does damage generally via hideous blow which is darn effective (though requires a concentration check unless he is using a reach weapon).

The more your game progresses, the weaker his DR will get in the grand scheme of things. Especially so once the DM starts giving Cold Iron weapons to the bad guys. This player has dedicated the bulk of his early game resources to pursuing this strategy. What have the other players been taking for feats??

The swordsage can:
* Ignore most terrain modifiers (some stance). This has helped a LOT in a few combats.
* Ignore flank someone from any angle (a different stance).

Keep in mind that only one stance can be active at a time.

* Rage 3/day (extra rage feat)

So hes slowed his maneuver advancement and spent a feat to be able to rage 3 times per day. Sounds reasonable to me. It also sounds like the problem is more with rage then anything the character is doing from his Swordsage levels. It also demonstrates the frontloaded power burst of multiclassing.

* Hit 1/combat for +2d6 damage (and ignore DR should that matter)
* hit 1/combat for 4d6 fire damage (touch attack) someone who has hit him (swift)

So after two standard actions, these attacks are gone until the fight ends. Unless he chooses to spend a full round action to get ONE back.

The rage+2d6+4d6 fire means that he can hit an opponent for 2d6+1 (sword) + 7 (16 STR+rage) +2d6/ignore DR +4d6 (fire) at 5th level. That is one round at 36 points of damage. Not bad for 5th level. After that he's down to 2d6+8 until the rage ends.

Each maneuver requires a standard action. You cant use two standard actions in the same round. So you cant use the +2d6 maneuver and the +4d6 maneuver together.

In addition, once rage ends, hes taking penalties. Whats his con modifier?

The ranger does d8+4 damage with one weapon and d6+2 with another. If both hit (and he has a -2 for attacking with both) he is doing 14 points of damage. AND he has twice as much money in magic weapons (2 +1 weapons). The swordsage has 1 less BAB but he get's weapon focus for free, so that's a wash. So that means the ranger has a lower attack bonus AND does less damage than the raging barbarian AFTER the swordsage craziness has been used up! Both are light armor (this swordsage, for RP reasons, has an 8 Wis so no AC bonus).

As has been said, this ranger is weakening himself by two weapon fighting without a sizeable source of bonus damage. You're comparing this underpowered ranger to a character in the midst of a X/day ability that provides large burst damage.

The non-fey warlock is quite effective at range, hitting most rounds, but does 3d6+1 damage (11.5). Not bad, but he drops quickly (just died last combat in fact) and without the DR to eat damage has a real problem against mooks. (d8+1 damage does 5.5 against him, about 1.8 against the fey warlock)

What has the non fey warlock taken for feats? Why are these feats not a factor in his performance?

.....and the swordsage is just broken beyond compare (I will ban them after this).

You have seen this this character played to 4-5 correct? Characters only get one attack at that level so the one maneuver per round limitation isnt much of a limitation right now. Have you ever seen Martial Adepts played at levels 12+ where spellcasters are throwing around world shaping spells? Or When a barbarian can swing 4-5 times (depending on enchantments) while in the midst of a rage? Or when the rogue can sneak attack for 10d6 damage while dual wielding? Or when a ranger can cast Hunter's Eye while under the effects of a Foebane spell and proceed to unload on this Favored Enemy that grants him a +10 bonus?

The point of my words here is to show you two things:

1) You are comparing "optimized" characters vs "unoptimized" characters and judging the "optimized" character based on these biased numbers.

2) You are making a blanket observation based on one segment of gameplay (low level play). Spellcasters are weak as heck when they start out. But once they gain access to 9th level spells, they start to border on god like power. That is a drastic change in power over the course of a characters career.

Maneuvers are really good at low level when everyone conforms to the "one attack per round" rule. But once the rogue and barbarian start churing out those multiple attacks laden with their class granted damage output, and spellcasters start rewriting the laws of physics, maneuvers will fall back in line.

 

[brehobit]

OK, I spent some time addressing your points, but I think at the end of the day the details obscure what I'm trying to say.

I claim that at lower-levels (say 1-10) a core-built fighter-type is much less powerful and generally useful than a swordsage using all the books. This is, IMO, a sign that there is significant power creep. The power-attacking, cleaving barbarian is cool, but very much one trick. And a barbarian 1/swordsage X has pretty much the same tricks. A few less hit points, a lot more damage.

Fey Skin reads: "You gain damage reduction (overcome by cold iron) equal to 1 + the number of feats you have that list Fey Heritage as a prerequisite"

At level 4, there are only two Fey Heritage feats (not counting the base Fey Heritage) that you can qualify for (Fey Skin and Fey Power). This would mean that the DR is 3, not 4, as Fey Skin does not check Fey Heritage, just feats that list it as a prerequisite.

The DR stacks with Warlock DR. So DR is 4.

The more your game progresses, the weaker his DR will get in the grand scheme of things. Especially so once the DM starts giving Cold Iron weapons to the bad guys. This player has dedicated the bulk of his early game resources to pursuing this strategy. What have the other players been taking for feats??

By 9th level the DR will be DR 7/cold iron. That's darn significant, I don't think there is another mechanism for a 9th level character to have that kind of DR.

I'm running RoHD. While I _will_ be giving some folks cold iron weapons, the plot of the module doesn't really have a lot of reason/ability for the baddies to have really any of them. How on earth do they even figure out he *has* a vulnerability to cold iron? I suppose someone might cast a big divination, but I'm not sure that info would flow from any reasonable question about the group.

Keep in mind that only one stance can be active at a time.

So hes slowed his maneuver advancement and spent a feat to be able to rage 3 times per day. Sounds reasonable to me. It also sounds like the problem is more with rage then anything the character is doing from his Swordsage levels. It also demonstrates the frontloaded power burst of multiclassing.

The rage certainly helps. But ability to do *35* points of damage in a round at 5th level, in pretty much every fight (as long as someone hits him) is gross. Sure it's only one round, but that will take to half any reasonable baddy at that level. The +2 from flanking which pretty much always exists is also big.

So after two standard actions, these attacks are gone until the fight ends. Unless he chooses to spend a full round action to get ONE back.

He's got 6 maneuvers per fight. *6* We've had one fight where he ran out. When you can do 35 points of damage (on average) in the first round of a fight, fights tend to be rather short. Going through RHoD, I find that CR 7 monsters average around 65 hit points. He will, by himself, do 1/2 that damage in a round against something that should be a *serious* challenge to the party.

Each maneuver requires a standard action. You cant use two standard actions in the same round. So you cant use the +2d6 maneuver and the +4d6 maneuver together.

One is a boost, so it's swift, so you can.

In addition, once rage ends, hes taking penalties. Whats his con modifier?

+2, +4 when raging. So 7 rounds. At 5th level, there aren't a lot of fights that last that long. (We've had one).

As has been said, this ranger is weakening himself by two weapon fighting without a sizeable source of bonus damage. You're comparing this underpowered ranger to a character in the midst of a X/day ability that provides large burst damage.

It's a standard build. Pure ranger. Core rangers don't have a source of bonus damage. I'm arguing that the swordsage is better than the full-BAB ranger at fighting. By a lot. You seem to agree. I think that's a problem.

What has the non fey warlock taken for feats? Why are these feats not a factor in his performance?

Listed above. Ranged combat feats mostly. Pretty much standard issue for a warlock.

You have seen this this character played to 4-5 correct? Characters only get one attack at that level so the one maneuver per round limitation isnt much of a limitation right now. Have you ever seen Martial Adepts played at levels 12+ where spellcasters are throwing around world shaping spells? Or When a barbarian can swing 4-5 times (depending on enchantments) while in the midst of a rage? Or when the rogue can sneak attack for 10d6 damage while dual wielding? Or when a ranger can cast Hunter's Eye while under the effects of a Foebane spell and proceed to unload on this Favored Enemy that grants him a +10 bonus?

So your argument is that being overpowered at lower levels is fine, because later they aren't so hot? A high-level sword sage is utterly scary at high levels. Level 12? A swordsage can, once per fight, do 12d6 fire damage to a very carefully selected area that is quite large (ring of fire), all you need is someone to cast expeditious retreat on you and the area is huge. No caster can dish anything like that out *every* fight. And that's just 1 of 3 6th level maneuvers the swordsage can use every fight.

The point of my words here is to show you two things:

1) You are comparing "optimized" characters vs "unoptimized" characters and judging the "optimized" character based on these biased numbers.

Sure. But can you do a better job with a 5th level ranger using core-only rules? If not, I think the power-creep argument stands.

2) You are making a blanket observation based on one segment of gameplay (low level play). Spellcasters are weak as heck when they start out. But once they gain access to 9th level spells, they start to border on god like power. That is a drastic change in power over the course of a characters career.

Sure, but we tend to play level 1-11 or so. And from the surveys on these boards, so do most people. If that game isn't balanced there, it isn't balanced. On top of that, I think the swordsage has no problem at all doing very very well at higher levels. Finally, I think the swordsage, using all the "non-core" stuff will CLEARLY wipe the floor with any pure-core PC other than perhaps a druid.

Maneuvers are really good at low level when everyone conforms to the "one attack per round" rule. But once the rogue and barbarian start churing out those multiple attacks laden with their class granted damage output, and spellcasters start rewriting the laws of physics, maneuvers will fall back in line.

But as we won't get to that (maybe around level 11?) it doesn't really matter.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Depends on the class.

Full casters for instance I think will fair better with just core rules that other classes. Still there are a few really powerful PRC combos that can push a caster over the top.
Skill monkeys don't really get too much of a boost as far as skills go outside of the core.
As for fighter types, well, frenzied berserker anyone?

 

[VirgilCaine]

By 9th level the DR will be DR 7/cold iron. That's darn significant, I don't think there is another mechanism for a 9th level character to have that kind of DR.

That Warlock is using Hideous Blow in melee, right? d6 HD means he will need that 7 DR to survive...and 7 isn't that much. Use large sized creatures with high strength and a two handed weapon (4 ogre Rgr2s, for an EL9) and 7 DR doesn't seem very much at all.

Let's see...9000 gp worth of stuff easily nets the ogres Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 (snicker), a +1 Huge Greatsword (3d6, right?) and some magic spiked armor with magic spikes...we're talking two attacks per round, with 10 reach for both. Add in favored enemy bonuses...It gets really sick.

Maybe throw in a +1 human-bane greatsword that a different group of Barbarian 2 Ogres throw between each other (having delayed so their initiatives are sequential), for maximum pain.

 

[MerricB]

Finally, I think the swordsage, using all the "non-core" stuff will CLEARLY wipe the floor with any pure-core PC other than perhaps a druid.

I really think this isn't true.

A pure Fighter does extremely well compared to the Swordsage at levels 1-10. Not so well at levels 11-20, but the pure fighter does badly against everyone at levels 11-20.
Barbarian does well at all levels.
A pure Ranger should have a different speciality - bow. (TWF is a mistake).

By 9th level the DR will be DR 7/cold iron. That's darn significant, I don't think there is another mechanism for a 9th level character to have that kind of DR.

Stoneskin. Warforged may be getting close.

Fighters (and other armoured characters) won't be hit as often as the Warlock, either.

Cheers!