D&D 5E Polymorph and a Box

[plisnithus8]

Is the someone a Pc or an Npc?

What are the differences in rules for PCs and NPCs?

 

[snickersnax]

Is the someone a Pc or an Npc?

I was thinking NPC when I wrote it, but I was also thinking that there isn't a significant difference between the two

 

[Ganymede81]

Regarding the polymorph spell, "The target’s gear melds into the new form."

An enclosing box that would prevent growth is fundamentally no different from a jacket, belt, or pair of boots. It simply melds into your form until the spell ends.

That seems like saying the Sleep spell isn't intended for insta-kill so putting a hobgoblin to sleep and rolling her off of a cliff is a rules shenanigan.

Those are not analogous. We know what happens, rules wise, when a sleeping person is thrown off a cliff. We DON'T know what happens, rules wise, when Polymorph and cramped spaces interact.

 

[snickersnax]

In situations like these, I also use the...what do you want to call it? "Cheese Factor?", "Intention of?", or maybe the "Startrek Transporter Logic?" effect. That is...sure, the "RAW" may indicate one thing, but the RAW also can't cover everything possible. Ergo, needing a DM.

What you think of as cheese I think of as flavorful I like my PCs and NPCs to have signature moves. I guess I don't know why polymorph and a box is any cheesier than honey and an anthill or any of the other hundreds of different spell and/or non-spell combos.

If certain ways of killing are terribly repugnant, just make them illegal, policed and punishable.

I will have to admit that I'm still not adapting to 5e lack of save or die/suck. I still feel a loss every time a read a spell that's now a fraction of what it was.

Heck I'd even like there to be more options for cool interactions. Like being able to cast Tensor's Floating Disc through your familiar so you can have a chariot pulled by a tiny animal

 

[Caliban]

What are the differences in rules for PCs and NPCs?

Mainly in that you can use them as a "plot device". You can say almost anything happens with an NPC if it happens "off screen". Once they are interacting with the PC's they should use pretty much the same rules (other than any special abilities the DM may have added).

 

[Lanefan]

As far as the bedrock, some DMs would rule the creature might appear enlarged in the closet space large enough for its form or that its growth pushes it up the crack.

Some DMs might.

This one wouldn't.

I'm not sure what the deep water has to do with anything - if anything, the water would be a dlightly softer surface to splat against.

Sure. And then the victim either sinks - and drowns - or doesn't sink and swims around until sheer exhaustion renders it unconscious - and drowns.

And just turning it into s fish would sufficate the fish, but then at zero hp for the fish it reverts back to original firm and only carry over damage effects the original form so no carry iver in thus case.

I somehow think I'd rule death by suffocation bypasses hit points entirely. It's the same as drowning, only in reverse as you've a water-breathing creature "drowning" in air.

And if on death it reverts to original form then fine - you've got a dead human or orc or whatever (and all its gear!) instead of a fish, and the only drawback is now you'll have to find something else to cook for dinner.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

Hiya!

In situations like these, I also use the...what do you want to call it? "Cheese Factor?", "Intention of?", or maybe the "Startrek Transporter Logic?" effect. That is...sure, the "RAW" may indicate one thing, but the RAW also can't cover everything possible. Ergo, needing a DM.

A player trying to do this is trying to, imho, "cheat the system". He's trying to "Bag of Rats", or "Pun-Pun" the game. This is never fun or good for a campaign in the long run. Oh, sure, may be amusing the first time it comes up, but like mom always used to say...It's all fun and games until someone looses a PC.

Where I don't think they're trying to cheat the system at all. Poly-Other is a dangerous spell, and absolutely deadly if done right and the target fails its save.

And yes, it goes both ways: PCs can die from it too.

DM: You failed your save? Ok then. You turn into a fish. Then he puts you in a small iron box. Then puts that in a Leomunds Chest. You die. Make a new PC.

Sounds about right, assuming you're in a party without access to revival effects that only need part of a corpse.

The player would be non-plussed. Maybe be amused the first time it happened...but after the group sees this happen multiple times over a few months play? Not so much fun anymore.

Well, it's on the DM to come up with other creative ways of trying to kill PCs instead of spamming the same move over and over.

Personally, it fails my "Intent trumps RAW" DM guideline. What is the intent of the caster? To turn someone into a fish?

No, the intent of the caster is to kill the opponent by the most efficient and least risky method available. Poly-Other usually fills the bill nicely.

Remember: combat is war, not sport.

To insta-kill something with a spell that isn't intended to do that? Nope. Fails the "intent" smell test. The PLAYER is intending to kill his opponent via some rules Shenanigans

Except it's not shenanigans at all. It's using the spell for its intended purpose, which is to disable or kill enemies.

Regarding the polymorph spell, "The target’s gear melds into the new form."

An enclosing box that would prevent growth is fundamentally no different from a jacket, belt, or pair of boots. It simply melds into your form until the spell ends.

Actually, it's very different.

A jacket, belt, boots, jewelry etc. are all things that are being worn or carried by the target...and all of it correctly melds in.

The box, however, is not being carried by the target...in fact, one could argue the box is carrying the target...and thus does not meld in.

Picture another example: a goblin cowering in a tiny bedrock cave just barely big enough to hold it. You're feeling particularly vicious today and really want to see some blood, so you cast Wall of Force tight across the cave entrance to lock the goblin in, and then hit this poor goblin with Poly-Other and make it a hill giant. By your logic the cave (and thus, by ridiculous but still logical extension, the entire planet) should meld in to the goblin as it changes to a giant.

Yeah, I didn't think so either.

And a containing box or cage or what-have-you would use the same logic...except a box is probably easier to shatter through than a bedrock-cave/wall-of-force combo.

Lan-"someone else can clean up that mess"-efan

 

[Krachek]

What are the differences in rules for PCs and NPCs?

I avoid to apply unnecessary cruelty to Npc!

 

[Fanaelialae]

That seems like saying the Sleep spell isn't intended for insta-kill so putting a hobgoblin to sleep and rolling her off of a cliff is a rules shenanigan. As a DM I encourage my players to use their spells and other resources in creative ways.

If a party keeps letting one of their own continually be polymorphed and stuffed into a box to die, then shame on them.

Using Sleep to roll a hobgoblin off a cliff isn't a rules shenanigan. For starters, it only works if you happen to have a cliff laying around. Trying to rules lawyer that you ought to be able to insta-kill the hobgoblin by breaking his neck with a pile driver while he sleeps would be rules shenanigans (in my book). The DM can allow you to insta-kill a sleeping enemy, but he's also within his rights to require you to engage with it through the rules (meaning that you have to eliminate its hp).

It seems to me this is more along the lines of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". If the PCs (try to) insta-kill their enemies by throwing them off of cliffs while they sleep, and putting them into boxes while they are polymorphed, then the players should expect to be on the receiving end of such tactics as well (which is both reasonable and to be expected when running the Combat as War style game that these tactics imply). IMO, this quickly becomes a losing proposition for the players since, unless there are absolutely no penalties for death in your game or the DM plays with kid's gloves on, PCs are far less expendable than the DM's effectively infinite pool of easily replaceable monsters.

 

[plisnithus8]

I somehow think I'd rule death by suffocation bypasses hit points entirely. It's the same as drowning, only in reverse as you've a water-breathing creature "drowning" in air.

And if on death it reverts to original form then fine - you've got a dead human or orc or whatever (and all its gear!) instead of a fish, and the only drawback is now you'll have to find something else to cook for dinner.

While as DM you could come up with your own rules, RAW P.183 PHB - When a sufficating creature runs out of air, "it drops to 0 hit points and is dying." At zero hp the polymorphed creature reverts to its original form with its original hp.