does a dwarf (halfling) polymorphed into say a troll lose their +2 save bonus vs spells and spell like abilities (+1 on all saves)? it seems this is more a physical than a mental characteristic and should therefore be lost with a change of type but I haven't seen any rulings on this
polymorph and racial saving throw bonuses
- Thread starter Jack
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Let's see what Skip has to say, in Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (Part 2).
You have the physical qualities of the assumed form.
Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings. Physical qualities also include natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).
Your size becomes the same as a typical example of the creature whose form you assume, as noted in the creature's description. You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes. If for example, you change into a lizardfolk, you become Medium size -- you could not turn into a Small or Large lizardfolk.
Your maximum speed in any assumed form, however, is 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement; faster speeds are considered extraordinary qualities, even when they are not so listed in the creature's description. In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form. Your DM might want to make certain exceptions. (For example, a dwarf's skill bonuses related to stonework are arguably cultural in origin and don't just appear when you're in dwarf form.)
And from the example:
In lizardfolk form, Anlion's statistics don't change much. He gains the lizardfolk's natural armor, natural weaponry, and racial skill bonuses. He loses his low-light vision (an extraordinary special quality). He retains his half-elf racial skill bonuses. He also gains the lizardfolk's racial skill bonuses to Balance, Jump, and Swim checks, and the lizardfolk's natural ability to hold its breath. His equipment keeps functioning in his assumed form, as is usually the case with alter self.
Half-Elf Traits: Anlion is immune to magic sleep spells and effects, and he has elven blood (for all effects related to race, he is considered an elf). Anlion also has a +2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects, a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks, and a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks (already figured into the statistics given above).
So, according to this, the half-elf keeps his half-elf racial bonuses (because racial bonuses are mental), and he gains the lizardfolk bonuses (because racial bonuses are physical).
So I guess if you cast several Alter Self spells in a row, you could rack up the half-elf, lizardfolk, dwarf, halfling, goblin, elf, and kobold bonuses to a bunch of different skills... shame they're named bonuses, so they won't stack on the same skill!
-Hyp.
You have the physical qualities of the assumed form.
Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings. Physical qualities also include natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).
Your size becomes the same as a typical example of the creature whose form you assume, as noted in the creature's description. You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes. If for example, you change into a lizardfolk, you become Medium size -- you could not turn into a Small or Large lizardfolk.
Your maximum speed in any assumed form, however, is 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement; faster speeds are considered extraordinary qualities, even when they are not so listed in the creature's description. In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form. Your DM might want to make certain exceptions. (For example, a dwarf's skill bonuses related to stonework are arguably cultural in origin and don't just appear when you're in dwarf form.)
And from the example:
In lizardfolk form, Anlion's statistics don't change much. He gains the lizardfolk's natural armor, natural weaponry, and racial skill bonuses. He loses his low-light vision (an extraordinary special quality). He retains his half-elf racial skill bonuses. He also gains the lizardfolk's racial skill bonuses to Balance, Jump, and Swim checks, and the lizardfolk's natural ability to hold its breath. His equipment keeps functioning in his assumed form, as is usually the case with alter self.
Half-Elf Traits: Anlion is immune to magic sleep spells and effects, and he has elven blood (for all effects related to race, he is considered an elf). Anlion also has a +2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects, a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Spot, and Search checks, and a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks (already figured into the statistics given above).
So, according to this, the half-elf keeps his half-elf racial bonuses (because racial bonuses are mental), and he gains the lizardfolk bonuses (because racial bonuses are physical).
So I guess if you cast several Alter Self spells in a row, you could rack up the half-elf, lizardfolk, dwarf, halfling, goblin, elf, and kobold bonuses to a bunch of different skills... shame they're named bonuses, so they won't stack on the same skill!
-Hyp.
Racial bonuses stack, so they will 
"Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus works (see Combining Magical Effects, below)."
At least thats what the SRD and Player's Handbook say. Unfortunately, the DMG neglects to mention this. You don't even need to abuse alter self for it to be relevant tho: Do dwarves get +4 on their fort save vs a poison spell (+2 racial vs poison, +2 racial vs spells) or only +2 ?
"Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus works (see Combining Magical Effects, below)."
At least thats what the SRD and Player's Handbook say. Unfortunately, the DMG neglects to mention this. You don't even need to abuse alter self for it to be relevant tho: Do dwarves get +4 on their fort save vs a poison spell (+2 racial vs poison, +2 racial vs spells) or only +2 ?
but ...
that might be correct for alter self. but if you look at the examples for polymorph (in part 3 of skip's articles), anlion keeps his half elf racial skill bonuses but seems to lose his other half elf traits. I say "seems to lose" beacuse they are not listed in the lizardfolk or troll examples for polymorph whereas they were specifically listed in the alter self example for lizardfolk
that might be correct for alter self. but if you look at the examples for polymorph (in part 3 of skip's articles), anlion keeps his half elf racial skill bonuses but seems to lose his other half elf traits. I say "seems to lose" beacuse they are not listed in the lizardfolk or troll examples for polymorph whereas they were specifically listed in the alter self example for lizardfolk
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Diirk said:Racial bonuses stack, so they will
[blink]
Okay.
How bizarre.
I wonder what they're expected to stack with, normally?
-Hyp.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Len said:
That was my first guess, and I looked at Half-Dragon, Half-Fiend, Half-Celestial, Fiendish, and Celestial and didn't find any. Forgot Lycanthrope!
Thanks
-Hyp.
diirk
racial bonuses stacking is relevant to a dwarf getting +4 versus a poison spell. but it's only relevant to a dwarf polymorphed into a halfling - does he get +5 if you've established that he keeps his dwarf racial bonuses if polymorphed into a halfling
and the example in skip's part 3 suggests he probably doesn't
racial bonuses stacking is relevant to a dwarf getting +4 versus a poison spell. but it's only relevant to a dwarf polymorphed into a halfling - does he get +5 if you've established that he keeps his dwarf racial bonuses if polymorphed into a halfling
and the example in skip's part 3 suggests he probably doesn't
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