D&D 4E Polymorph in 4E?

[Szatany]

I expect in 4e we have a single polymorph spell that scales with Level. The Higher the spell level used, the better creature you can be.

Pure Fantasy, totally made up:
Level 1: Any 1 HD animal.
Level 2: Any 2 HD Animal or vermin.
Level 25: Any 25 HD or less Animal, Vermin, plant, ... Dragon.

No, no way, way too good.
Should go like this:
Sorcerers get Polymorph, Draconic
Wizards get Polymorph, Elemental
Druids get Polymorph, Animal
Clerics get Polymorph, Planar

Each polymorph is a class level 4 spell. Each follows the same rules. For example, planar polymorph:

Turn into [insert specific CR 1 outsider] for 10 minutes.
If your caster level is 6, you can turn into [insert specific CR 3 outsider] instead.
If your caster level is 8, you can turn into [insert specific CR 5 outsider] instead.
If your caster level is 10, you can turn into [insert specific CR 7 outsider] instead.
....
If your caster level is 30, you can turn into [insert specific CR 27 outsider] instead.

So each spell gives you 14 alternative forms, but specifies exactly which ones, so broken monsters are out of question.'

That's the very best what a polymorph spell should be able to do.

 

[DreamChaser]

Pure Fantasy, totally made up:
Level 1: Any 1 HD animal.
Level 2: Any 2 HD Animal or vermin.
Level 25: Any 25 HD or less Animal, Vermin, plant, ... Dragon.

One of the single largest problems with polymorph is that it is set by HD rather than CR or some other mechanic measuring the power of the creature.

Perhaps, since XP will be the general measure of a creature's power, the spell could allow you to change into a creature worth up to Y experience points per caster level.

As an example...a wizard might think to himself: Hmmm...I can cast Alter Self and I'm a 3rd level caster, so I can only change into humanoids worth 300 xp or less. That means an ogre (lets pretend that the absurd difference between giants and humanoids which are the same creature but for their size is gone in 4e), ogre (merrow), yuan-ti, any phb humanoid, locathah, orc, drow, grimlock, lizardfolk, or troglodyte.

Obviously the numbers would need crunching but this makes a great deal more sense than HD.

DC

 

[Szatany]

Perhaps, since XP will be the general measure of a creature's power, the spell could allow you to change into a creature worth up to Y experience points per caster level.

It's not just a measure of creature's power. It's a measure of creature's power against players. And you need a measure of creature's power against the world. Monsters have no such figure.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You know, I wonder if it wouldn't be a lot easier to balance a 4E version of polymorph if they reduced the duration from 1 minute/level to 1 round/level. If the spell is essentially a "one-combat" spell, it's acceptable to allow the PC to gain slightly more potent abilities than if it lasts long enough for more elaborate uses.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Another easy way to make things work is for polymorph to remove all your normal spellcasting abilities until you return to your normal form. That way, it may allow you to change your role from a Controller to a Striker, for instance, but you won't really have any of the benefits of a Controller while you're polymorphed.

 

[jasin]

You know, I wonder if it wouldn't be a lot easier to balance a 4E version of polymorph if they reduced the duration from 1 minute/level to 1 round/level. If the spell is essentially a "one-combat" spell, it's acceptable to allow the PC to gain slightly more potent abilities than if it lasts long enough for more elaborate uses.

That's true, but it's a solution I would strongly dislike.

Ideally, polymorph shouldn't be just about combat bonuses. Between morale effects, stat boosts, weapon enhancers and others, there's plenty of ways to get those. Polymorph should be about versatility. Need to go into water? You're a fish. Need to get to that ledge high up? You're a bird.

I wouldn't mind a lot of combat power stripped from polymorph in order to keep it polymorph rather than multiple PHB2-style monomorphs. Summon monster (fixed list) or astral construct (menu of abilities) both seem like a good place to start.

 

[Thanee]

You know, I wonder if it wouldn't be a lot easier to balance a 4E version of polymorph if they reduced the duration from 1 minute/level to 1 round/level. If the spell is essentially a "one-combat" spell, it's acceptable to allow the PC to gain slightly more potent abilities than if it lasts long enough for more elaborate uses.

But it's boring if everything, that can be used in combat, is reduced to combat-use.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

It's notoriously hard to balance and can easily lead to unforeseen consequences (Pun-Pun) even for a DM that tightly reigns in polymorphing.

Don't make poor Polymorph responsible for the abomination that has been spawned by a particular monster's ridiculous special ability.

If anything, Polymorph shows that some things are simply too good, like War Trolls.

It's an indicator of brokenness, not broken by itself.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Mouseferatu]

That's true, but it's a solution I would strongly dislike.

Ideally, polymorph shouldn't be just about combat bonuses. Between morale effects, stat boosts, weapon enhancers and others, there's plenty of ways to get those. Polymorph should be about versatility. Need to go into water? You're a fish. Need to get to that ledge high up? You're a bird.

But it's boring if everything, that can be used in combat, is reduced to combat-use.

No argument from me. I wasn't saying it was a great solution, just that it would be easier to balance mechanically.

That said, I wonder if maybe the solution isn't two different spells? A "combat polymorph," that gives you access to potent creatures for a few rounds, and a more general polymorph that gives you longer duration, but is limited to much weaker critters.

Again, not saying that's automatically the best solution. Just sort of spitballing, here...

 

[Kunimatyu]

Don't make poor Polymorph responsible for the abomination that has been spawned by a particular monster's ridiculous special ability.

If anything, Polymorph shows that some things are simply too good, like War Trolls.

It's an indicator of brokenness, not broken by itself.

Bye
Thanee

War trolls are fine as a monster, just not as a PC option. And that's fine -- I don't want the designers to have to do a "polymorph check" every time there's a new addition to the Monster Manual. Much better to fix Polymorph itself.