Polymorph Other 3.0 The Final Thread

[Rashak Mani]

Any comments on the spell balance itself ? How have you handled to avoid spellcaster becoming super strong and super natural AC ?

 

[Rashak Mani]

Kuo Toa Keen vision would be natural and therefore gained thru Polymorph ?

 

[KarinsDad]

Kuo Toa Keen vision would be natural and therefore gained thru Polymorph ?

No. It is an extraordinary ability, so PO would not supply it.

However, the real problem here is that it is nearly impossible to find a "natural ability" which is also not listed as Ex, Sp, or Su.

I think a good house rule is to gain Ex abiities, but not Sp or Su ones from PO. That way, PO would supply the target with visual abilities, minor immunities, etc. that are not magical in nature since Ex abilities are not magical.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Kuo Toa Keen vision would be natural and therefore gained thru Polymorph ?

According to the guidelines provided by the spell: almost certainly.

Once again, the DM is free to ban any particular ability - but the guidelines pretty clearly favor its inclusion.

However, the real problem here is that it is nearly impossible to find a "natural ability" which is also not listed as Ex, Sp, or Su.

No, it is actually impossible. Even the list of "example" gained natural abilities in the spell are without exception Extraordinary Abilities. Natural Abilities, according to the PHB, were supposed to be their own ability type but that got scrapped by the time the Monster Manual got printed. Every ability is by definition either Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like - regardless of whether it is "natural" or not.

And very few abilities are actually marked as being natural if they are. That's why it keeps coming down to a DM call all the time.

I think a good house rule is to gain Ex abiities, but not Sp or Su ones from PO. That way, PO would supply the target with visual abilities, minor immunities, etc. that are not magical in nature since Ex abilities are not magical.

A much better rule is to allow people to gain gamebalanced abilities. After all, the Troll's Regeneration is totally game breaking while a Boggle's Grease ability is not. Whether or not an ability is inherently magical or not has little or nothing to do with its effect on the game - in fact, Ex versions of abilities are inherently superior to Su versions because they stay active in an AMF - that's why Epic Cretaures get Ex DR and Non-Epic Creatures don't.

There's even less rubric for that however - but that's OK so long as it is a house rule. What is game balanced is going to vary between games anyhow.

-Frank

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, it is actually impossible. Even the list of "example" gained natural abilities in the spell are without exception Extraordinary Abilities. Natural Abilities, according to the PHB, were supposed to be their own ability type but that got scrapped by the time the Monster Manual got printed. Every ability is by definition either Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like - regardless of whether it is "natural" or not.

Wasn't there a defnition that came out some time stating that natural abilities were "any abilities not defined as Ex, Su, or Sp"?

Examples - the Hydra's ability to attack with all its heads after moving or charging, or the Lernean Hydra's immunity to damage that doesn't sever a head.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wasn't there a defnition that came out some time stating that natural abilities were "any abilities not defined as Ex, Su, or Sp"?

Examples - the Hydra's ability to attack with all its heads after moving or charging, or the Lernean Hydra's immunity to damage that doesn't sever a head.

-Hyp.

Or even most of the "natural abilities" list in the PO spell:

claw
bite
swoop
rake
constriction
flying (if have wings)
swimming
low light vision

Of these, only low light vision and constriction are Ex abilities.

Hence, the literal way to interpret that spell is any attack listed under natural weapons (DMG pg. 7), any movement which is non-magical, and any Ex ability listed in the spell. Virtually every other special ability is Ex, Sp, or Su and the spell does not grant it.

 

[dcollins]

- Rake is also Extraordinary.
- I can't find where low-light vision is Extraordinary; where is that?
- I also can't find where the Swoop attack is defined; where is that?

In general, I agree that the 3.0 Polymorph requires some DM adjudication, and the Natural Abilities can't be entirely the set of abilities listed in the spell. However, I would want to interpret it pretty narrowly.

- I'd allow anything mundane that's not listed as Ex, Sp, or Su. (Pretty clear.)
- I'd interpret the "attack routines" clause as allowing any Extraordinary ability that creates an additional attack roll. This would allow Constrict, Improved Grab, Rake, Swallow Whole, etc., and maybe Trample.
- The really sticky part is the final "Other nonmagical abilities (such as an owl's low-light vision)" which is truly ambiguous, and I'm really torn on what that's supposed to mean.

 

[FrankTrollman]

- I can't find where low-light vision is Extraordinary; where is that?

Every time it actually bothers to appear in text blocks - such as the Gnome Traits on page 106 to the Giant Owl on page 103.

- I'd allow anything mundane that's not listed as Ex, Sp, or Su. (Pretty clear.)

Such as an Aboleth's ability to steal memories? How about a Will-o-Wisp's Deflection bonus?

You're looking at this as if the Monster Manual was written with Polymorphing in mind - and while it should have been, it obviously was not. The level of consistency you are asking of the Monster Manual is simply not there. Most of the things that aren't listed as typed abilities are simply minor typos. Some of the things which are listed as typed abilities (such as Pixie and Drow arrows) are also clearly typos.

- The really sticky part is the final "Other nonmagical abilities (such as an owl's low-light vision)" which is truly ambiguous, and I'm really torn on what that's supposed to mean.

As far as I can tell - that means "whatever the hell the DM feels like right now." There is no consistent way to read that passage at all - Owl's have an Extraordinary Ability to see in the dark, and people are not supposed to get Trollish Regeneration, and the two abilities are not marked differently in any way.

-Frank

 

[dcollins]

Granted that the polymorph rules do not have air-tight rules designators to key off in the MM. That said, what would require the smallest amount of alteration to make them consistent?

Every time it actually bothers to appear in text blocks - such as the Gnome Traits on page 106 to the Giant Owl on page 103.

That's helpful. Granted it's not noted as Ex in the DMG, that in the gnome's case it's just bundled under the "gnome traits" heading, and in the giant owl it's actually "superior low-light vision", it likes like maybe low-light vision should not be Extraordinary. Fix those couple of "racial traits" blocks to remove the Ex and it's consistent.

Such as an Aboleth's ability to steal memories? How about a Will-o-Wisp's Deflection bonus?

Note the word "mundane", as in simulating-something-from-real-life. I'd vote "no" to both your examples.

Most of the things that aren't listed as typed abilities are simply minor typos. Some of the things which are listed as typed abilities (such as Pixie and Drow arrows) are also clearly typos.

I agree. Fixing those typos in the most consistent manner seems to be the most straightforward solution.

 

[FrankTrollman]

What you'd really want to do is to go through the entire book and change all the abilities to be:

(EX): These are extraordinary nonmagical abilities based on skill or experience or upbringing, or whatever. The creature keeps these when they are transformed and you can't get them by transforming into a creature which has them. Example: Dwarven Stonecunning.

(Na): These are natural nonmagical abilities that are the result of gross physical form. The creature loses these when they are transformed and you can get them by transforming into a creature which has them. Example: Snake Constriction.

(Su): These are supernatural magical abilities that are the result of gross physical form. The creature loses these when they are transformed but you can't get them by transforming into a creature which has them. Example: Dragon's Breath.

(Ma) These are magical abilities that are the result of training, skill, upbringing, or whatever. The creature keeps these when they are transformed and you can't get them by transforming into a creature which has them. Example: Cleric's Turn Undead.

(Sp): Just like Spell-like abilities before.

Then you'd have to pull out a secondary stick for things like Trollish Regeneration which are in fact Natural but are too powerful to be allowed with a simple Polymorph.

Or you could just turn Polymorph into a version of Alter Self that could give you specific size and attribute changes as well as movement rates and vision types. Kind of like Horrid Form if you've ever played Vampire.

Polymorph requires either extremely close cooperation from the monster books or complete freedom from them. Right now it has neither and is a complete mess (and 3.5's is essentially worse).

-Frank