Polymorph & Pregnancy

[Zappo]

"Nooo, noone could ever need a BoEF, really, it's for perverts only, who on Earth would need rules for sex..."

 

[Kahuna Burger]

"Nooo, noone could ever need a BoEF, really, it's for perverts only, who on Earth would need rules for sex..."

Were a book to be advertised as adressing social and biological repurcussions of sex and reproduction without having a stronger focus on pornographic images, mechanical rules for the actual act, rape spells or imature thought in general, I'd be all for it. Such a suplement does not yet exist nor has one been advertised, and sadly, marketing mentality will likely not allow it.

Kahuna Burger

 

[jasper]

UMM guys how can you tell the difference between male and female dragons, spiders etc.

As to all questions it depends on the intent of caster.
First of all gee i get polymorph into JayLo. Aint no man touch me. And I going to start hunting down and busting knee caps of a certain spell slinger.

As to girl to boy. The baby is carrying to term. Then the midwife god helps with the delievery. Them ma, pa, and offspring are going to bust a cap into a certain so to be dead spellsinger.

 

[The Sigil]

For the Purpose of argument, we'll keep the discussion to the use of Polymorph Other.

First, can a person under the effects of a polymorph spell become pregnant?

Maybe.

Look at the wording here from the SRD: The subject retains its own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities.

That the subject retains its own type tells me that the change is, in effect, cosmetic. Your DNA (which IMO determines your creature type) remains the same, even if your physical form has been altered.

Taking this to the extremely bizarre medical example, I could be surgically altered to look exactly like, say, a small pony. Yes, it would take extensive operation, but in theory, it could be done, yes? But I am still a human... I am still me... despite the cosmetic change, I still have a human's DNA... and consequently, the sperm (or eggs) I produce will also be "human."

Having tackled that, let's go to your specifics...

For example:
1) A Female Elf is Polymorphed into a female Gnome.

Yes... provided the coupling is one that could normally impregnate an ELF (not a gnome), as the DNA of her eggs must still match that of the potential sire.

2) A male human is Polymorphed into a female human.

A very tough call... but I would say "no..." on grounds that the character's DNA is still "male human" (i.e., has XY chromosomes) and that while he may be "surgically altered," his body chemistry is still wrong... he still has a "man's chemistry." Also, women are born with their full complement of eggs and no not produce them later in life, while sperm are generated throughout a man's life... and I don't think the scope of the polymorph spell would include converting cells into egg cells... especially not sperm cells because then you could get a "Y" sperm cell transformed into an egg, which suddenly allows for a YY match on potential offspring (remember, male is XY, female is XX) - it is essentially an undefined quantity.

Second, Could a person induce pregnancy while under the effects of a polymorph spell?

For example:
3) A Male Elf polymorphed into a Male Gnome.

Following the same line of reasoning as above, the elf could induce pregnancy - but only in creatures that can normally be impregnated by a male elf.

4) A Female Human Polymorphed into a Male Human.

This is a little bit tougher than the Male -> Female question. I would lean towards "no" for symmetry, but the fact is, that if she has "working glands" there is no need to polymorph her "eggs" into "sperm" (in fact, it could be argued that if this is the case, one coupling would render her infertile should she ever reverse the process, as females do not continuously generate eggs)... instead, these glands would work as normal - but her DNA would be XX instead of XY so instead of a 50% chance of male, 50% chance of female offspring, she would have a 100% chance of female offspring.

For symmetry purposes, I personally would lean towards, "no" -- but within the interpretations I have set, I can see "yes, but those offspring will always be female" as an acceptable answer as well... pick whichever one suits you best - though the second interpretation suddenly makes the perpetuation of an Amazonian society, 100% sans men, quite possible (provided they can find a polymorpher) and makes for some interesting cultural implications among Amazons and/or lesbians (and I will let that discussion drop at that - I think it's valid to point out that there are implications for an Amazon society as they are a topic in fantasy RPGs, but I think those implications are so obvious as to not need further exposition).

If pregnancy is possible under 1 or 2 above, what would happen to the fetus when the spell is reversed? What happens to the child when the pregnancy comes to term?

Well, this one actually becomes pretty clear cut when you assume that the change is 100% cosmetic and that pregnancy is induced in the same manner as the "pre-polymorph" type. The fetus is, in essence, wholly unaffected by the polymorph spell - if the father/mother was ORIGINALLY a human, regardless of the form it later polymorphed into, the child inherits "human" genes from that parent. (Replace "human" with race of choice for other examples).

This also goes well with the existing system for describing the genesis of half-fiends, half-dragons, half-elves, et al. If one parent is a dragon, regardless of the form he later polymorphs into, the child receives a draconic heritage.

See below for a fuller discussion of what happens when a pregnancy comes to term.

Third, what happens to an existing fetus when Polymorph is cast onto someone who is already pregnant? Is the person protected from the effects by some mystical force to protect the child or is the fetus subject to the same transformation as the mother (i.e.. transformed to a fetal version of what mom is transformed into)? Or is it not? What happens to the child if the pregnancy goes to term while under the influence of the pregnancy?

This is the TOUGH question... tougher than the other two, because we cannot rely upon the single simple assumption used earlier to deduce the answers. I do not think that pregnancy is a sufficient condition to protect one from the force of magic, so the person is not protected by some mystical force in order to protect the child.

The discussion also borders on the political, because the answer can be shaped by whether or not you believe the fetus is "part of the mother's body" and therefore subject to the effects of the spell or "a separate and distinct entity" and therefore NOT subject to the effects of the spell. Based on that RL (political) viewpoint alone, you are liable to get separate answers. I will try to field the question from both POVs and let you decide which one you want to use.

"Part of the mother's body" - along with everything else in mom, the fetus undergoes a cosmetic change into a fetal version of the end-result-of-polymorph-creature in question. If the pregnancy goes to term, and the baby is born, we can consult the description of the spell: Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its original form. In this case, part of the mother's body (the fetus) is separated from the whole, and therefore reverts to its original form - ostensibly once the separation is complete (e.g., when the umbilical cord is cut - make sure baby is clear of mommy if mommy has been polymorphed into a tiny form compared to a normal baby). So the child is born looking like the polymorphed creature, but immediately returns to its normal (non-polymorphed) form upon completion of birth (remember, its genetic makeup was unchanged by the polymorph).

"A separate entity" - The fetus does NOT undergo the cosmetic change - it is a target separate and distinct from mom; in mom's new form, the cosmetic changes do not affect the DNA, so there is no worry about carrying a human baby in a cow's uterus - it's a human baby in a human uterus that happens to be shaped like a cow's uterus. If the pregnancy goes to term, the baby comes out looking like "normal." If mom is polymorphed into a cow, it literally looks like a cow giving birth to a baby human, for example.

Note on this second interpretation: This method opens a whole 'nother can of worms - you could theoretically use the polymorph spell to polymorph mom into a form that is physically too small to contain the fetus (i.e., you could transform a woman who is nine months pregnant into a pigeon, and the pigeon is physically too small to contain the fetus). For "ease of use," I would suggest that we add a "side effect" to the polymorph effect - a simple Reduce effect targeted on the baby that reduces the baby in size along with mom - and which is dispelled upon birth (as the polymorph if you consider the fetus as part of the mother, above). Doing it any other way opens too many cans of worms - what happens if mom is polymorphed into something small and later gets pregnant and the baby then grows too big? What happens if mom is a couple of days pregnant and then polymorphed into something small? For simplicity's sake, let's just say that baby - including babies sired after the polymorph takes effect, while not changed in physical form, gets Reduced to scale with mom (adding a 1st-level effect on the side does not seem like overkill).

In both cases, if the form in question lays eggs, etc., I would suggest that the fetus "reverts to normal" (size and/or form) when the egg is expelled from the body - this CAN have deleterious consequences to the baby - I would suggest that the child can survive in the egg as though still in utero for a couple of minutes should the egg be off sufficient size to contain the child (as that is the function of an egg) but because of a physiology not suited for prolonged time in an egg (e.g., needing fresh blood through an umbilical cord, not just nutrients through an egg), moms-to-be are strongly encouraged to make sure the baby gets attention immediately (including breaking the egg) or risk the child suffocating/drowning... of course, eggs that are too small to hold the child rupture when the child is born and, while they make the child a little messier, have no deleterious effects.

The final thing to consider (in both cases) is "what happens if a pregnant woman is polymorphed into a man?" (Since my view on impregnation was that a man polymorphed into a woman cannot become pregnant, the "what happens if a man becomes pregnant and the effect is later dispelled is not needed - and it seems obvious to me that a woman polymorphed into a man cannot then become pregnant). Again, for the sake of greatest simplicity, I would rule that because of the potential for damage to mother's and baby's body, a polymorph spell cannot change the gender of a pregnant woman - the polymorph works as normal in all respects except the gender cannot be changed. (Implication: It makes for a GREAT pregnancy test.)

Fourth, what if the form the person is polymorphed into is of a different Type than that of the persons natural form. For example, a humanoid is transformed into a giant or a dragon.

We already know from the rules that Dragons and some Outsiders can assume compatible forms to breed with humans etc., what about the other way around or is this a factor of their supernatural existence or power?

It is a factor of their supernatural existence. Remember, your DNA doesn't change - if you can't impregnate someone due to genetic differences, you can't impregnate them while polymorphed, either (if it's merely a question of different size categories and resultant literal physical inability to mate under normal circumstances rather than strict genetics - and I'll leave it at that - you can impregnate someone while polymorphed subject to the depictions above).

How would you run this in your own campaign? Are there rules concerning it anywhere? Has it ever been discussed before?

As I outlined above. Not that I am aware of. Probably, but I wasn't privy to the discussion.

Seriously, once you make the assumption - based on the fact that your type DOESN'T change - that the change is purely cosmetic and therefore has no effect on your genetic structure, the "rules" fall out rather easily and the only times we have to "fudge" a bit are (1) if you believe that the fetus is separate from the woman and have to concern yourself with childbirth and physically getting the fetus to "fit" within the polymorphed form no matter what and (2) changing the gender of someone already pregnant. And the two simple fudges suggested (a "Reduce" effect on the fetus in the first case and the removal of the ability to select gender in the second) are simple and have pretty nice results... including the nifty "pregnancy test" side effect.

Worth noting (for me) is that the "litter of puppies" example above (well, we can remove the curse on your wife, but not your kids) doesn't do it for me - it allows a spell that ostensibly has a single target to affect multiple targets with no increase in required spell power (level), and I don't like that one, though it makes for interesting RP possibilities.

--The Sigil

 

[LazarusLong42]

Were a book to be advertised as adressing social and biological repurcussions of sex and reproduction without having a stronger focus on pornographic images, mechanical rules for the actual act, rape spells or imature thought in general, I'd be all for it. Such a suplement does not yet exist nor has one been advertised, and sadly, marketing mentality will likely not allow it.

Indeed. I'd buy it. The societal implications of pregnancy, birth, and motherhood/fatherhood on adventurers would be particularly interesting. But yes, we're not likely to see it, or, frex, a treatise on evolution's place in D&D as influenced by divine and arcane magic, or anything like that. But they'd be interesting to write

/biologist

As to pregnancy and polymorph... personally, if a polymorphed creature became pregnant, I would simply not allow the effect to be dispelled. The polymorph effect was cast on a single creature, but is now in effect on two creatures; dispel magic either targets one creature (which the pregnant creature is not) or an area where it still targets creatures individually, in which case it can't figure out what creature the polymorph effect was cast on.

Similarly, polymorph spells could not affect a pregnant creature, either in her normal form or a polymorphed form, because she is, for the moment, not one creature. (And yes, this would have to become consistent: bull's strength and similar spells that target one creature would have no effect; 3R haste or 3E mass haste would affect the pregnant creature as if she were two creatures; etc.)

This could lead to some interesting problems, especially if a female adventurer who was only a month pregnant got hit with one of these spells. I guess it'd be more effective than killing a rabbit...

 

[BOZ]

well, here's my take on it.

it's the DM's option as to whether or not a creature's DNA transforms during the polymorph or if polymorph is merely a form change.

if the DNA changes, then i'd say that the baby's DNA is decided at the time of conception, and remains so regardless of any subsequent form changes the mother goes through.

if the DNA does not change, then the baby has the mother's natural DNA. if such a union is capable of producing children, then the baby will be a mixture of the mother and father's true forms.

in order for a baby to be born, it must be inside a womb (for most races) yes? well, if a creature is impregnated (whether said creature is naturally a female or a male polymorphed into a female) then it must retain a womb to give birth correct? there are a few ways to deal with this, should the mother take on a form that does not normally have a womb:

1. the baby ceases to exist.

2. the mother cannot change form while pregnant.

3. the mother will have a womb capable of supporting the baby, no matter what form she/he/it takes.

sound reasonable?

 

[Centaur]

I've noticed a few people reference using dispel magic to reverse the efects of a polymorph other Spell. This is not possible.

To reverse the effects of a polymorphs Other Spell, you need to use another Polymorph Other Spell with the tartget form being "YourSelf".

Might make a difference in a couple of peoples POV.

EDIT: Retraction
My Mistake, see comments below!

 

[John Crichton]

I've noticed a few people reference using dispel magic to reverse the efects of a polymorph other Spell. This is not possible.

To reverse the effects of a polymorphs Other Spell, you need to use another Polymorph Other Spell with the tartget form being "YourSelf".

Might make a difference in a couple of peoples POV.

Huh? No where in the Polymorph spell description is this stated. Dispell Magic is one of the surefire ways to beat a polymorph. Unless I have missed some errata somewhere, that is how it is played...

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Huh? No where in the Polymorph spell description is this stated. Dispell Magic is one of the surefire ways to beat a polymorph. Unless I have missed some errata somewhere, that is how it is played...

Yeah, duration is permanant, not instantaneous. Dispell all the way, baby...

 

[Centaur]

Op my bad, duration is permanent not Instantaneous like I was thinking....

opps.