Polymorph Self/Other

[nwn_deadman]

From the errata center…

“What about tieflings and aasimar -- aren't they outsiders? For the Forgotten Realms, which has those races as PCs, we came up with the term "native outsider" - they're outsiders, but their home plane is the Prime Material, so you can bring them back from the dead with raise dead. You could also say that that makes them the equivalent of a PMP [prime material plane] creature for the purpose of polymorph.”


The new polymorph spell listed in the errata center states that tieflings and aasimar are PMP (prime material plane) creatures, the same as being a Native Outsider.

I take it to mean that they are treated as equal to humans when checking to see what type of creatures they can be polymorph into.

This means that humans cannot polymorph into an Outsider and neither can a tiefling or aasimar.



Now, here is the question.

What happens when a Monk reaches 20th level or a Divine Disciple reaches 5th level or a Contemplative reaches 10th level, etc, etc.

Are these characters now Outsiders in the sense that they are Native Outsiders (like tieflings and aasimar) or are they Outsiders?

I know that Monks and Contemplatives receive DR 20/+1 and they are said to be Outsiders

And

Divine Disciples are said to be planet touched (same as tieflings and aasimar), but are they Native Outsiders or Outsiders?

All of these characters can be raised with raise dead so I would think that they are Native Outsiders and cannot polymorph into an Outsider.

What do you think and what is the reason for thinking it?

 

[gfunk]

This was answered in the DND FAQ. Essentially all of the classes you mentioned start their life as mortals and later become outsiders. Since they start as mortals, says the Sage, they can be raised normally.

Also, an Outsider can polymorph into another outsider, native or not. I see no reason to disallow this by the rules, though you may certainly nerf it if you don't want your PCs polymorphing into Planetars and Balors.

 

[nwn_deadman]

I didn't see anything in the D&D FAQ that covered this at all.

I already know that these classes can be raised from the dead.

I already know about thier outsider status when spells that effect extraplanar creatures is concerned.

In the Errata Center, they state that planet touched are NATIVE OUTISDERS. This is what you call an outsider that is from the Prime Material Plane.

Now, since Prime Material Plane creatures cannot polymorph into an outsider, then neither can a NATIVE OUTSIDER.

Do you follow me? Here is the copy of the Errata Center...

Notice how they say that they are equal to a PMP (human) creature and are treated as such for the purpose of Polymorph.

In effect, what they are saying is that they want polymoprh to be far less powerful than most people seem to think, thus raising the bar for shapechange.

Polymorph Errata: WotC's Sean Reynolds indicates that there could be a correction coming up regarding what forms can and can't be assumed through the use of the polymorph spells as presented in the PHB (on the WotC Message Boards):
Current in-house ruling is "no undead, no constructs, no outsiders, no elementals [unless you are that sort of creature already]."

What if the polymorphing creature is already an undead, construct, outsider or elemental? What forms can these types assume? Anything a prime creature could, plus outsiders of their type (or elementals of their type, etc.)

Why not outsiders? Outsiders are innately magical creatures with inherent magical abilities in every atom of their bodies. They're not made from the same stuff we are.

What about the shapechange spell? Shapechange is 9th level, I'd say it wouldn't be limited in that way.

What about tieflings and aasimar -- aren't they outsiders? For the Forgotten Realms, which has those races as PCs, we came up with the term "native outsider" - they're outsiders, but their home plane is the Prime Material, so you can bring them back from the dead with raise dead. You could also say that that makes them the equivalent of a PMP [prime material plane] creature for the purpose of polymorph.

Further limitations on size and hit dice from Skip Williams: The new form can range in size from Diminutive to one size larger than the subject's normal form, and can have no more hit dice than you have, or that the subject has, (which ever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 hit dice.

 

[milo]

I don't see why it is such a big deal to polymorph into a balor. They are not that great without there spells and other supernatural abilities if I am not mistaken. Same with the solar. I don't think they would get DR or fast healing either?

 

[nwn_deadman]

You would get STR DEX CON to start, then you add in faster movement (for the most part) ability to FLY and last (but not least) a huge Natural Armor Bonus.

All of this for a mere 4th level spell?

Try an Astral Deva

18 STR
18 DEX
18 CON
50 Walk
100 Fly
15 Natural Armor

All of that for 1 4th level spell, that can last 1 hour per level?

And that is just for a 12th level character, A Planetar is a bit better.

And, by the way, you cannot polymorph into a Solar seeing as how there is a 15 hd limit.

This is just 1 example of how polymorph is much too powerfull and needed to be taken down a notch (or three).

 

[Jeremy]

They are low HD making them one of the few accessible high power forms under 15 HD. They have good str/dex/con for their size. They have *huge* natural armor that stacks with just about everything, and they retain their ability to cast spells.

Or at least, those are the reasons I'd want to do it.

Besides striking the fear of Torm into my enemies...

 

[Iku Rex]

Polymorph Errata:

That's not part of the Polymorph Errata. That's just SKR discussing possible corrections to the polymorph spells. This later turned into the the "official" PO errata, which can be found here: http://www.d20reviews.com/Eric/polymorphother.jpg .

As it stands, "native outsiders" are still "outsiders", so feel free to change one into a Planetar...

 

[nwn_deadman]

Well, they shouldn't be able to polymorph into an outsider unless they lose the ability to come back from the dead with a raise dead.

Take any other spell and compare it to the power of polymorph, can you name 1 spell that can give an 18 to 3 stats and +15 natural armor and fast movement for 1 hour per level of caster?

If you caould name any other spell I would agree that this does not need to be changed.

 

[melkoriii]

OK I have a character that just got Poly Other.

In the SRD it says

<snip>
The polymorphed creature acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature it has been polymorphed into while retaining its own mind. Physical abilities include natural size and Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. Natural abilities include armor, attack routines (claw, claw, and bite; swoop and rake; and constriction; but not petrification, breath weapons, energy drain, energy effects, etc.), and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, etc.).
</snip>

Now when it says "Natural abilities include armor, attack routines (claw, claw, and bite; swoop and rake; and constriction"

What does it mean for teh attack routines?

Say I polyed the Fighter into a Polar Bear. Polar Bear's attack routine is:
"2 claws +13 melee, bite +8 melee"
So does that mean the fighter on a full attack action gets 3 attacks just like a real Polar Bear?

How does the fighters BAB count in all this?

What about things like a Crocodile's Improved Grab? Or a Lion's Pounce and Rake? or a Giant Squid's Improved Grab, Constrict and Ink Cloud?

How can I tell what would come with the form and what would not?

 

[Thanee]

Say I polyed the Fighter into a Polar Bear. Polar Bear's attack routine is:
"2 claws +13 melee, bite +8 melee"
So does that mean the fighter on a full attack action gets 3 attacks just like a real Polar Bear?

How does the fighters BAB count in all this?

What about things like a Crocodile's Improved Grab? Or a Lion's Pounce and Rake? or a Giant Squid's Improved Grab, Constrict and Ink Cloud?

How can I tell what would come with the form and what would not?

First of all, you do not get anything, that is either extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural.

You don't get stuff like Improved Grab, Rend and such, since these are (or should be) extraordinary abilities.

As with the BAB, I think you use your own BAB and your new Strength to figure out your attack bonus, then use the attacks as given, which in case of the polar bear would be 2 claws at full BAB and 1 bite at -5 BAB.

I'm not entirely sure, but that's how I'd do it at least!

To decide, what you get and what not, I'd grant you whatever attack form is listed under the attack line in the monster's stat block, unless it is clearly an extraordinary, spell-like or supernatural ability.

Bye
Thanee