Polymorphing into a Hydra gives no extra attacks?
- Thread starter thorian
- Start date
CapnZapp
Legend
That's right, Alter Self and Polymorph does not grant extra attacks.
The real reason for this is balance, as stated. A spell granting multiple extra attacks would have to be of very high level (say like lvl 9 Shapechange). A decision was made to not allow this imbalance to make other sorts of polymophs impossible at lower levels, hence this rule.
In D&D balance goes before realism. There isn't really a good in-game reason for this restriction, so I recommend you to rationalize it as "magic works in mysterious ways".
Trying to find a (pseudo)-scientific answer (such as your brain can only operate two arms) will only get you into trouble.
a) You can almost always create examples that break any reasoning. (I'm not even going to try to create one, but wouldn't a Ettin be able to control double the amount of octupi arms...?)
b) magic is NOT scientific. It cannot and should not follow scientific explanation. Effect cannot be derived from cause. This is perhaps the one thing that separates magic from science, and if D&D would remove it, spells would be reduced to simple tools where the exact mechanism would be completely understood.
That would remove the "magic" from magic, no?
But first and foremost: balance always trumphs realism.
The real reason for this is balance, as stated. A spell granting multiple extra attacks would have to be of very high level (say like lvl 9 Shapechange). A decision was made to not allow this imbalance to make other sorts of polymophs impossible at lower levels, hence this rule.
In D&D balance goes before realism. There isn't really a good in-game reason for this restriction, so I recommend you to rationalize it as "magic works in mysterious ways".
Trying to find a (pseudo)-scientific answer (such as your brain can only operate two arms) will only get you into trouble.
a) You can almost always create examples that break any reasoning. (I'm not even going to try to create one, but wouldn't a Ettin be able to control double the amount of octupi arms...?)
b) magic is NOT scientific. It cannot and should not follow scientific explanation. Effect cannot be derived from cause. This is perhaps the one thing that separates magic from science, and if D&D would remove it, spells would be reduced to simple tools where the exact mechanism would be completely understood.
That would remove the "magic" from magic, no?
But first and foremost: balance always trumphs realism.
Darklone
Registered User
Different size bonuses don't stack, polymorphing into something is not a size nor enlargement bonus... It has been debated, but there was nothing in the FAQ or somewhere else yet that indicated that you couldn't wildshape/polymorph and later Animal Growth for additional effect.rtaylor@cmc.net said:
Darklone said:
Now we are talking about wildshape? lol.. ok
So, the druid loses a huge amount of equipment (effectively down to headband, goggles, necklass, and that is about it), a huge amount of movement (compared with other shapes he could've taken instead), a hit to ac (albiet most animals are like this, but then most animals have more item slots to help alleviate this problem), the inability to cast spells (unless natural spell is taken, so yet another cost), he doesnt even get to do all that much damage with each of them, and he gets to hold his breath the whole time (aquatic subtype but no mention of the ability to breathe air)
I guess it mainly just comes down to there being much better forms to take. Sure, 8 attacks is impressive, but given the sheer mangitude of creatures he can choose from the giant octopus doesnt really stand up (oohh.. punny).
Darklone said:Add Animal Growth and have fun
It is a fun spell
but then we are talking about a pretty high level druid, one of his wildshapes for the day (which is turning him into something that he must hold his breath for), a feat (for natural spell), and a higher level slot (taking another round, and it has a vocal component which is probably bad for a guy holding his breath).Sure, there might be other guys where they have a lot of attacks without this restriction, but given the built in limitations for such creatures it doesnt seem to be overpowered.
I have no problem with a low level guy turning into a creature with two claws and a bite via alter self. This will get them into melee, but likely they will still be doing pretty piddly damage, but at least they will get to roll a few times now and then
At polymorph level gaining the natural attack routine (but not the ability to get more attacks than 'normal', which to me means if you can attack once with a weapon then you cant use an extra limb for an extra attack with some weapon, but natural attack routines are exempt from this clause as they are the natural attack routine
) which is nice but not always helpful, as shown above.Apparently you think that the octopus is way out of line though, can you explain why? Other than, 'but it has 8 attacks!'
Btw, if I was an 8th level druid and had a choice between giant octopus and a dire lion (which is an option at this level) the dire lion would win everytime while on land and the octopus would win everytime while in the water. But, it isnt because of number of attacks, they both get about the same amount over a couple of rounds.
What does it mean? According to Skip Williams:
Many DMs and players find this rule puzzling. Essentially, it means that if you suddenly find yourself with two extra arms you can't just pick up four weapons and wade into melee, use a four-handed weapon, fire and reload a heavy crossbow (even a repeating heavy crossbow) in the same round, or perform any other combat tricks that come to mind. You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a
(That's not what it meant in 3.0, and there are no significant changes, but hey...)
tomBitonti
Hero
Rules silliness
I'm finding this to be a bit bizarre.
If you polymorph into a centaur, you don't leave two legs dragging behind.
I presume that you can gallop on away.
If you polymorph into a giant spider, what happens then?
"You see a giant spider dragging itself forward on two legs; the other
legs trail behind, limp and useless."
If anything makes sense, its controlling how much you can alter your form
with polymorph. The more radical the change, the more difficult (== higher
level spell) needed to make the change.
[EDITED FOR CLARITY]
I'm finding this to be a bit bizarre.
If you polymorph into a centaur, you don't leave two legs dragging behind.
I presume that you can gallop on away.
If you polymorph into a giant spider, what happens then?
"You see a giant spider dragging itself forward on two legs; the other
legs trail behind, limp and useless."
If anything makes sense, its controlling how much you can alter your form
with polymorph. The more radical the change, the more difficult (== higher
level spell) needed to make the change.
[EDITED FOR CLARITY]
Last edited:
