Possibly Controversial Discussion

[keeper216]

I made this because when I made a warlock claw build and some issues came up. I want everyone's opinion.

Ok so here is what Eldritch Claws says "As a free action, you can form the energy of your eldritch blast into a set of claws extending almost an entire foot from your hands. While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons. You are automatically proficient with your eldritch claws. On a successful attack with an eldritch claw, you deal your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage. Once you form your eldritch claws they remain until just before the beginning of your next turn. You cannot use your normal eldritch blast ability while your eldritch claws exist. A monk may not use eldritch claws as part of her flurry of blows."

(Bolding=Highlighting)

One discussion is whether you actually use your Eldritch Blast. Those who say yes quote this "As a free action, you can form the energy of your eldritch blast into a set of claws extending almost an entire foot from your hands."
Those who say no quote this "On a successful attack with an eldritch claw, you deal your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage."

Another issue is how many natural attack you can have. "While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons." Could you have more attacks if you had rapid strike? Is the bold just outlining what the feat can do by itself unaltered by feats?

Another issue is how many claws can you have. Say you have four arms can you have four claws? The creation of the claws is a free action and there is no limit on the amount of free actions. So you would use this feat twice to make 2 pairs of claws. This discussion is tied to the first. Simply because if you can't have more then two attacks then the extra claws are worthless no matter how many there are.

Another discussion is whether hellfire blast works with this. This discussion is tied to the first discussion.

 

[delericho]

I made this because when I made a warlock claw build and some issues came up. I want everyone's opinion.

In cases like this, it would be really helpful if you could cite all the relevant feats and, in particular, the relevant sources - although you do so for the Eldritch Claws themselves, you don't for Rapidstrike and Hellfire Claws.

Ok so here is what Eldritch Claws says "As a free action, you can form the energy of your eldritch blast into a set of claws extending almost an entire foot from your hands. While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons. You are automatically proficient with your eldritch claws. On a successful attack with an eldritch claw, you deal your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage. Once you form your eldritch claws they remain until just before the beginning of your next turn. You cannot use your normal eldritch blast ability while your eldritch claws exist. A monk may not use eldritch claws as part of her flurry of blows."

Okay...

One discussion is whether you actually use your Eldritch Blast. Those who say yes quote this "As a free action, you can form the energy of your eldritch blast into a set of claws extending almost an entire foot from your hands."
Those who say no quote this "On a successful attack with an eldritch claw, you deal your normal amount of unarmed strike damage plus your eldritch blast damage."

Yeah, it's not terribly well written. FWIW, I say "Yes" - see the bit you've quoted above.

Another issue is how many natural attack you can have. "While your eldritch claws exist you may make up to two claw attacks as natural weapons." Could you have more attacks if you had rapid strike?

Yes. Since Eld Claws gives you a pair of claws, Rapidstrike would allow you to make an additional (third) attack with them. Bear in mind, though, that you'd need to qualify for the Rapidstrike feat in the first place, which isn't normally the case for PCs.

Is the bold just outlining what the feat can do by itself unaltered by feats?

Yes. Feats are written assuming a 'normal' PC. Since most PCs don't have natural attacks normally, the Eldritch Claws is written assuming that the attacks it grants are the only natural attacks the PC possesses.

Another issue is how many claws can you have. Say you have four arms can you have four claws? The creation of the claws is a free action and there is no limit on the amount of free actions. So you would use this feat twice to make 2 pairs of claws.

You get as many claws as you have hands. However you only get two claw attacks.

This discussion is tied to the first. Simply because if you can't have more then two attacks then the extra claws are worthless no matter how many there are.

Yep.

Another discussion is whether hellfire blast works with this. This discussion is tied to the first discussion.

Ouch. That's a difficult one.

Basically, it comes down to the question above about whether Eld Claws counts as a use of your Eldritch Blast. If the answer is "yes" then Hellfire Blast would also apply - you get an extra +2d6 damage per level but take 1 point of Con damage. If the answer is "no", then it does not.

(The relevant text from Hellfire Blast is "Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability...")

 

[Yora]

Instead of using eldritch blast to make one ranged attack, you make two melee attacks. It's still a use of the eldritch blast ability. As a free action, you activate your claws, using them is a normal action (either standard for one, or full for both). Simple as that.
It says two attacks, so it's always two, regardless of what natural or unarmed attacks you may have from other sources.

 

[Greenfield]

I'm going to say that, if I were the DM, the Warlock would get two attacks, no matter how many iterative attacks their BAB might normally give, and no matter how many he/she might get from feats or other class abilities. It says "up to two" attacks. If the Warlock uses a Move action, the "up to" part comes into play (meaning you get one attack when you move, not two).

Now, what if the Warlock has more arms? I say, you get one claw per arm, no matter how many arms you have. But two arms or fifteen, you get "up to two" attacks per round with the claws. The fact that the Feat limit5s the attacks even when BAB might grant more, even to a "normal character".

Can it be coupled with other Feats that might boost the damage? If the Feats boost the Eldritch Blast damage, and the claws do that same damage plus HTH, then those other feats add to the damage.

Are you actually using the Blast? Who cares? The Claws feat spells it out, so run it as written.

 

[delericho]

I'm going to say that, if I were the DM, the Warlock would get two attacks, no matter how many iterative attacks their BAB might normally give

Note: the Eldritch Claws are considered natural weapons, and you don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons anyway. So this bit is RAW.

and no matter how many he/she might get from feats

This I disagree with, at least in the specific case of Rapidstrike.

Are you actually using the Blast? Who cares? The Claws feat spells it out, so run it as written.

It matters because of powers like Hellfire Blast which read "whenever you use your eldritch blast..." And, unfortunately, the Claws feat doesn't state it either way - there's enough wiggle room for either interpretation.

 

[Dandu]

You can use Hellfire Blast with Hideous Blow and Eldritch Glaive because they're invocations that modify your Eldritch Blast. Eldritch Claws is unclear, but I think it is within the spirit of the rules at least.

 

[keeper216]

For what ever reason you have four arms. Would multiattack work with eldritch claws? This is the build that I want to use it with.

Race: Azurins (special human basically)

warlock 6/Shou Disciple 5/Totemist 2/Hellfire 3/warlock 4/

1. dodge

3. Improved Unarmed Strike, Eldritch Claws (saved the feat from first level)

6. weapon focus (unarmed strike)

9. Improved Natural Strike or Shape Soulmeld

12. Multiattack

15. Superior Unarmed Strike or Beast Strike

18. Improve Multiattack

Girallon Arms Chakra Bind (Totem) once I hit Totemist 2.BAB 14. +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14 I think. I'm not sure the damage, mainly cause I am not sure how improved natural strike would figure into it. I might switch Improved Natural Strike with Shape Soulmeld. Without Improved Natural Strike it would be 14d6+str on main hands offhands would be 14d6+1/2 str. With either Superior Unarmed Strike or Beast Strike it would be 16d6. If all attacks hit it would be 128d6. Average damage would be 420 not counting str bonuses or Improved Natural Strike.