Post your Lair Assault Results Here (Spoilers)

I've run this thing four times now, and seen it run twice by other DMs, and never once have I seen it play out the same.

...

Thus far, I've seen four different strategies attempted for breaking down that sealed door, all of which managed it within two rounds, even though three of those four attempts relied heavily on luck.

I'm glad you're having fun.

Me, I wouldn't want to try to solve the same problem of getting through the same door over and over again. I'd want to try the other routes. To me, going through the same door over and over again IS running the encounter the same way over and over again. The minor details on individual tactics and results would be different, but the idea is the same, hence, it's not very interesting.

If the encounter allowed the DM to switch up the floor plan, to have the floor runes do good things some times, bad things other times, and random things some times, that would be enjoyable. If the mud room pillars raised up and down in one encounter, but forced the PCs to always go down in another encounter, or different sets of pillars were up and/or down each time with potential places to attach ropes, but also ways for those ropes to break, that would be interesting. If the cloaks helped some times, but set off a trap other times, that would be fun.

If the encounter allowed the DM to do fire damage some times, acid damage another time, blinds some times, weakens another, stuns another (note: these PC debilitating type effects that should be rare in a normal game should be common in a DM killer dungeon encounter), and a wide variety of effect, that would be cool. :cool:

I guess I just appreciate more imaginative encounter design then what was supplied. I appreciate a design that also makes the game new and different for the DM each time beyond which monster and trap he puts in which room.

Every time in the dungeon would be totally different for the players, not just a little different, and hence, a lot more interesting than going the same route, kicking down the same door, and facing the same BBEG with slightly different monsters in the way each time. The floor plan and the obstacles are too static and predictable, and there are too few monsters per room, for this to be a real challenge more than once. The entire encounter is focused on damage and except for the BBEG's immobilization, there is little in the way of riders. To me, that's a bit boring and not much of a challenge cause damage can be negated and healed easily.

And some of the awards are kind of lame too. I really could care less about creating a party where everyone is the same race. That doesn't really make the encounter more challenging. It makes designing the PCs more challenging. Eating the fish once means that any PC with a high Nature roll allows the PCs to eat the fish every time. That's not a challenge, that's a gimme in future runs through it. Different stroke for different folks.

I'm glad that it works for your groups. It doesn't work for me.
 

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What you describe as boredom, I see as the frustration of someone that doesn't understand (or perhaps just doesn't care to understand) how to use the tools effectively. Maybe that's an unfair assessment, but I find that's usually what's behind such claims.


And what I see is someone trying to make the discussion personal.

Please don't do that. Make your point without trying to tear down other people. Aside from ad hominem being notoriously weak logic, it is generally insulting to the person you're addressing. And Rule #1 of EN World is "Keep it civil", so being insulting should be right out.

Thanks. If you've any questions about this, please take it to e-mail or Private Message with one of the moderators.
 

We played this with a party of 4 Genasi Wizard|Artificers. Round 1 looked like this: each party member cast Icebound Sigil on their Staff of Missile Mastery, activated their +2 whetstone, and started the Wizard's Fury. Rounds 2 through 9 consisted of pew pew pew. 15 damage twice a round without rolling isn't bad.
 

activated their +2 whetstone

Note that the Augmenting Whetstone (+2) is a Level 6 Consumable, and thus not valid for Lair Assault.

However, a case could certainly be made for taking it instead of one of the 3 magic items (specifically the Level 6 one). In fact, I was thinking of doing that along with a +1 weapon (with a property I want) to convert it to a +2 weapon (enhancements from Whetstones do not stack), and that leaves me with just 1 magic item slot for armor (Leather Armor of Sudden Recovery). If you did that, you could take 2 other Consumables, but they have to be Level 5 or lower.
 

Note that the Augmenting Whetstone (+2) is a Level 6 Consumable, and thus not valid for Lair Assault.

However, a case could certainly be made for taking it instead of one of the 3 magic items (specifically the Level 6 one). In fact, I was thinking of doing that along with a +1 weapon (with a property I want) to convert it to a +2 weapon (enhancements from Whetstones do not stack), and that leaves me with just 1 magic item slot for armor (Leather Armor of Sudden Recovery). If you did that, you could take 2 other Consumables, but they have to be Level 5 or lower.

Yep, that's what we did, right down to the Sudden Recovery armor.
 

my version of this one uses the master's wand of mm, which can't use the whetstone since it's not a weapon. So i only get 2+5 int+4 cold con+ 1 enhancement = 12 - but I do get push 1 with each shot. I'm looking at some other magic missile hybrids to make a team of them:

MC ranger with spitting cobra stance for a 3rd shot whenever an enemy moves closer (also brings in the Bridge of Roots and some Thievery training) - this one might also be a revenant for Reaper's Touch.

MC Shaman with Spirit's Prey and bloodthirsty spirit feat. Would still use its own wizard's fury minor shot, but trigger shots at +2 damage from allies for its standard. If a pure shaman rather than a MC, give it Elemental Priest theme for four Minor RBA triggers.
 

Nullzone, I am sorry to learn your character didn't make it through the encounter. I'm sorrier still your DM opted to stiff you like that. It was bad enough that forced movement had to be clarified to prevent these sorts of shenanigans. ("I can't use my best encounter attack here because I have to pull the targets 3 squares first, and they're already adjacent to me.") That ruling was completely unfair to you, the person.

I've got a somewhat related example: the guy running the show on Tuesday decided it would be "fun" to place four traps and three monsters (elemental, warlock, and temple champion) in the first room. We saw atrocious luck on the party's initiative rolls, with the highest coming out to around 14 against nothing lower than a 20. Focused fire on the invoker scored six hits and surprisingly high damage rolls every time, resulting in one dead PC before anyone else got to act. (Lesson learned: more free action healing/damage reduction/damage negation is in order.)

While we sitting there, a bit stunned, one of the other players asked, "Can he play my horse?" For some reason, this guy had purchased a mount with his starting gold, intending to move it around as a minor meat shield. (That said, he does have a mounted party plan I will be curious to see.) Now the DM could have ruled that the horse's actions were limited as usual for such companions, but he didn't. The result was like a cross between Silver and the Littlest Hobo, ignored for better targets until it turned out he was the only one scoring critical hits, then bailing the fallen barbarian/ranger out of the first room at great personal risk, only to fall in the mud room when round four ended.

At that point, the DM could have gone with the default ruling, and declared that the horse was dead. Maybe that would have been easier on the group, since they decided to go back and use healing resources to restore Konan. (Named for a friend's horse that died earlier this week.) The one dissenting voice offered to both build a memorial ("And maybe a small one for that other guy...whoever he was...") and pay the resurrection costs, to no avail. The party knew it was doomed, but damned if they were going to leave the hero of the first four rounds, the only one to score a critical hit up to that point (two, in fact) behind.

The group resigned in round twelve, having lost both horse and barbarian in round ten and facing a heavily reinforced final room through a closed portcullis used to divide the remaining two members of the group, one of them a cleric with no appreciable offensive options. (It didn't help that the DM only failed one in ten saving throws against forced movement into hazardous terrain, much to the warden's frustration.) Nevertheless, Konan is a bit of a legend now in that store.

I know that doesn't help your swordmage. Here's hoping it might teach something to your DM.

KarinsDad, while I agree with you with regard to your wish list for future seasons, there's still a lot of variation available with what was provided.
I'll write more on that subject later; this entry has already run long as it is.
 

Nullzone, I am sorry to learn your character didn't make it through the encounter. I'm sorrier still your DM opted to stiff you like that. It was bad enough that forced movement had to be clarified to prevent these sorts of shenanigans. ("I can't use my best encounter attack here because I have to pull the targets 3 squares first, and they're already adjacent to me.") That ruling was completely unfair to you, the person.

There is a difference between his example and your example. In his example, the Aegis clearly states that the teleport is at the option of the player and the DM either broke the rules, or didn't know the rules and screwed up the adjudication.

In your example, the DM changed the rules because he played it like a normal session of D&D where his goal is to (subconsciously or consciously) help the players out in order to continue the storyline and the campaign.

In Lair Assault, that is not supposed to be the DM's goal.

I've got a somewhat related example: the guy running the show on Tuesday decided it would be "fun" to place four traps and three monsters (elemental, warlock, and temple champion) in the first room. We saw atrocious luck on the party's initiative rolls, with the highest coming out to around 14 against nothing lower than a 20. Focused fire on the invoker scored six hits and surprisingly high damage rolls every time, resulting in one dead PC before anyone else got to act. (Lesson learned: more free action healing/damage reduction/damage negation is in order.)

While we sitting there, a bit stunned, one of the other players asked, "Can he play my horse?" For some reason, this guy had purchased a mount with his starting gold, intending to move it around as a minor meat shield. (That said, he does have a mounted party plan I will be curious to see.) Now the DM could have ruled that the horse's actions were limited as usual for such companions, but he didn't. The result was like a cross between Silver and the Littlest Hobo, ignored for better targets until it turned out he was the only one scoring critical hits, then bailing the fallen barbarian/ranger out of the first room at great personal risk, only to fall in the mud room when round four ended.

At that point, the DM could have gone with the default ruling, and declared that the horse was dead. Maybe that would have been easier on the group, since they decided to go back and use healing resources to restore Konan. (Named for a friend's horse that died earlier this week.) The one dissenting voice offered to both build a memorial ("And maybe a small one for that other guy...whoever he was...") and pay the resurrection costs, to no avail. The party knew it was doomed, but damned if they were going to leave the hero of the first four rounds, the only one to score a critical hit up to that point (two, in fact) behind.

The group resigned in round twelve, having lost both horse and barbarian in round ten and facing a heavily reinforced final room through a closed portcullis used to divide the remaining two members of the group, one of them a cleric with no appreciable offensive options. (It didn't help that the DM only failed one in ten saving throws against forced movement into hazardous terrain, much to the warden's frustration.) Nevertheless, Konan is a bit of a legend now in that store.

I know that doesn't help your swordmage. Here's hoping it might teach something to your DM.

Teach the DM something? The player just needs to show that DM the actual Aegis rule.


The point of Lair Assault is to wipe out the party and challenge the players.

So, you are thinking that a DM who goes out to do that by changing the rules in the player's favor is accomplishing the goals of the adventure?

His DM should have played by the rules, but so should have your DM. At least if the goal of the DM is to strut his stuff and kill the PCs (which your DM did a great job of, but he then handed the player a second PC), and the goal of the players is to overcome the DM doing that.

So if in your group, these are not the goals, then that might explain why you find this adventure interesting and cool, and I find it pedestrian and even subpar.

KarinsDad, while I agree with you with regard to your wish list for future seasons, there's still a lot of variation available with what was provided.
I'll write more on that subject later; this entry has already run long as it is.

There's not a lot of variation of player expectations. They expect the same pits, the same fish, the same cloaks, the same traps, the same portcullis, the same lava, the same BBEG, the same door, the same runes, the same type of damage, often the same route, etc.

They even expect similar subsets of the same monsters.
 

Wiping out the party doesn't take precedent over keeping the encounter fun, KarinsDad. Who'd enjoy sitting through the entire scenario as a witness after coming out to play. There was an option available that wasn't going to help the remaining participants much more than it would do if run by the person that brought Konan, so why sideline a player, especially one that showed up as a favour to the DM and was dependent on him for the ride home? Maybe if quick TPK was assured, but once the rest of the team had resist 5 all damage, we were in for the long game.

The program encourages merciless handling, but you should still do what you can to enable players. "Say yes," is still a guiding principle, especially with regard to a rule that exists to give players a break -- death for NPCs at 0 hp is a guideline when it does not serve that purpose.

Oddly, only four players (two in one session) have grabbed fish to date, and two of those forgot to use them. This benefit was discovered at the first table run and one player even pointed out a method for storing the fish for later use, since they're sardines packed in oil. Only one out of eight players in the two most successful sessions went for the fish; most of the players preferred to spend their actions on other pursuits. Players have gone for the sealed door twice since they first learned of the pretty princess award, and two groups since then have completely negated the major benefit it offers a group. Two groups have had players attempt to reach the forge via the rune-filled corridor, and one even managed to cross it without suffering its effects.

That door still continues to be the preferred option and it's cost them every time. On two occasions, it's killed their main leader within a round, one by Roadrunner Gambit, the other by virtue of being missed by an attack that still pushed the party two squares. It's the preferred path for people seeking the speed run, though someone has found an even faster path.

A lot has been discussed, especially with regard to Vell's strategies and the dangers posed by those warlocks. Certain strategies have demanded rethinking use of the temple elect, the servants, and one of the great lessons in poor creature design, the fire elemental. Forced movement is also getting a lot of attention, especially with regard to the saving throw mechanic.

We definitely come at this from different backgrounds. I'm used to playing chess, where the starting setup is always exactly the same, and post mortem analysis can take days. Lair Assault isn't chess, let alone the Kobiyashi Maru scenario, but it's still a tactical training scenario for both the DM and the players. It's designed as a playtester's scenario, encouraging various objectives beyond the main one. While different monsters and traps might be more suitable to the challenge, it's best to hold off on such changes until you've tested several more subtle variations on the original idea.

While you see static floor plan and limited trap/monster placement as poor design, I believe adhering to the KISS principle was a good design choice. Varying energy damage doesn't matter if the entire party has resistance to all damage for the rest of the encounter, so why not stick to a theme? Multiple trap types can wait for another scenario, while this one provides insight into when traps are more likely to be ignored or tackled.

As for the challenges, sure, one Nature check can make the first one automatic for anyone that decides to spend actions on it, while the second is as easy as taking the right route. The third (please keep this secret, even here) will be more difficult for most groups to find, though there's one very good way to stumble across it by accident. Some of the others are consolations prizes, though a local player has failed to achieve the TPK award on two separate occasions by having the only PC standing at the end of the 20th round. One guy came close to winning the scenario by earning himself the award for dying by lava. The stage may be the same every night, but little awards like this encourage people to deliver diverse performances every night.

You also get a very different game out of this if you try out roles, races, and classes you typically don't play, even if you're still seeking to optimize them. Maybe this could get a bit repetitive for the DM, but I've enjoyed it as a training workshop of sorts.

There are things I'd like to see in future scenarios, such as randomly placed secret passages and maps that don't get displayed all at once. That's one advantage of laminated cards over fold-out maps. Another would allow for rooms to be changed at different times, rather than all at the end of the fourth round, as was the case here. I'd like a scenario that forced the party to have to consider splitting up at critical moments. I'd love to see every skill put to good use somewhere, preferably in ways where prior knowledge of the adventure did not negate the need for knowledge based skill checks.

I just wouldn't want all of these things at once--not yet, anyway. Maybe when such complications can be run more quickly.
 

A bit more more spoiler-heavy than others so be warned.










So I finally ran my first LA. First, the PCs:

Hybrid Cleric/Ranger
Hybrid Cleric/Fighter (BRV)
Hybrid Cleric/Ardent
Warden
Avenger

So high AC, all 3 clerics with Battle Cleric Lore, resist all 5, enemies next to Ardent weakened, something granting Vulnerability 5 to enemies, ignore difficult terrain.

Blew through the first room, ignored the platform room, went straight for the runes and easily dealt with the lone monster I left there for bait.

Things were going fine up until that point. A total of four area attacks from bat and hound started the pain and at least one was barely bloodied entering the forge. He died from a statue tossing him into lava.

After that it went seriously pear-shaped. Two breath weapons on consecutive turns kept them from focus-firing too much or hurting Vell at all. The weakened didn't help much since half the damage was from Vulnerability.

It kind of confirmed my fears: one route leads to death, without much hope. I suppose if everyone had Sudden Recovery armor it would be a different story, but I'm not sure if it would be enough once I could focus fire in the forge.

OTOH, my feeling is still that the other main route looks pretty (well, relatively) easy. Resist all 5 in the forge would make it quite doable. For people who have gone that route, am I wrong?

We'll see soon I guess. They're going for the 'one race' glory (likely Dwarves to avoid being trashed by statues+lava) and we'll test the platform route.

Has anyone seen a group of semi-optimizers die going the 'safer' route?
 

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