Post your monster CR complaints here
- Thread starter Grog
- Start date
After RttToEE, I learned how to fight Girallons. Sure, if you try to stand toe to toe with them and trade licks, you will probably lose. Even with a 6th level character.
But if you keep moving, keep the thing chasing you, you will force it to take move actions every round, thus reducing its vast number of attacks and eliminating any chance of a rend.
Of course, you will also be reduced to only 1 attack each round (unless you are hasted), so it will still be tough. You will also need spring attack or a shield spell (as written in the PHB) to thwart the girallon's AoO, as you keep darting out of reach.
Also, notice how low it's Will save is, +3. It's also a "beast" which means the 1st level spell calm animals would work on it.
All that being said though, I agree that they are a little too powerful for CR 5. Perhaps CR 6 would be better.
Shambling mounds are CR 6, and they are on par with girallons, perhaps even a little weaker.
But if you keep moving, keep the thing chasing you, you will force it to take move actions every round, thus reducing its vast number of attacks and eliminating any chance of a rend.
Of course, you will also be reduced to only 1 attack each round (unless you are hasted), so it will still be tough. You will also need spring attack or a shield spell (as written in the PHB) to thwart the girallon's AoO, as you keep darting out of reach.
Also, notice how low it's Will save is, +3. It's also a "beast" which means the 1st level spell calm animals would work on it.
All that being said though, I agree that they are a little too powerful for CR 5. Perhaps CR 6 would be better.
Shambling mounds are CR 6, and they are on par with girallons, perhaps even a little weaker.
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Dark Dragon
Explorer
My group (5 PCs with levels 13 to 15 and high ability scores) was almost wiped out by two Jariliths (demons from MM2, CR 13 => ECL 15 here). I don't have the stats of the monster handy, but I remember the HUGE amount of damage it deals, a nice attack bonus (+22 or so), SR at about 20, DR 20?/+3, 125 HP, pounce ability, augmented crit (18-20, x3!!!), good AC and some spell-like abilities (e.g. Darkness). One jarilith knocked the cleric out in the first round (the cleric is at level 14 and had an AC of 34!), the other brought the fighter (level 14) down within two rounds.
I used neither the jarilith's ability to summon another jarilith nor their spell-like abilities ... and it still stayed tough. CR 15 would fit better, IMHO.
I used neither the jarilith's ability to summon another jarilith nor their spell-like abilities ... and it still stayed tough. CR 15 would fit better, IMHO.
SimonMoon5
First Post
Spellgaunts from MM2.
Too much SR and DR for characters of appropriate levels to deal with.
Too much SR and DR for characters of appropriate levels to deal with.
Oh the Beblith should be in this group too. 100 hp DR 30/+3 and poison and it wrecks armor.
A CR 9 is a bit low, I would probably place it at a 10 or 11. I'm inclined to go with 10 since unlike lots of demons it doesn't have resistances or SR. A smart party with no melee weapons will hopefully resort to spelling it to death.
Girallions should probably be CR 6, Hill Giants are CR 7 and have more Hp and higher AC, but don't do quite as much damage. Hmmm after looking at the Hill Giant maybe the Girallion should be CR 7 just due to the raw amount of damage it can dish out.
Maybe they need to break CR down further into halves to handle those creatures that are on the border line.
A CR 9 is a bit low, I would probably place it at a 10 or 11. I'm inclined to go with 10 since unlike lots of demons it doesn't have resistances or SR. A smart party with no melee weapons will hopefully resort to spelling it to death.
Girallions should probably be CR 6, Hill Giants are CR 7 and have more Hp and higher AC, but don't do quite as much damage. Hmmm after looking at the Hill Giant maybe the Girallion should be CR 7 just due to the raw amount of damage it can dish out.
Maybe they need to break CR down further into halves to handle those creatures that are on the border line.
they are not really a CR 5 fight, expecially if not met in open ground.
Crothian said:
Going down my list:
Girallons - Probably CR 7, which I suppose could be too high or too low depending on the circumstances. Still, there's no way that a creature that could kill a 7th level fighter outright in one round should be a CR 5.
Ogres and bugbears - Either the ogre CR is too low or the bugbear's is too high. I'd probably drop the bugbear to a CR 1 - they really aren't that much tougher than gnolls, but they're a full CR higher. Although the ogre's CR of 2 seems like it might be too low - 2d6+7 damage with a 10' reach is nasty at 2nd level.
Tendriculous - CR 8 seems more appropriate
Dragons - Most of these CRs need to go up by 2 or 3 levels IMO, if not more.
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
My favorite under-CR'd monster:
WYRMLING ANARCHIC FIENDISH WHITE DRAGON
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiny Dragon (Cold)
Hit Dice: 3d12+3 (22 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 60 ft, fly 150 ft (average), swim 60 ft, burrow 30 ft
AC: 14 (+2 size, +2 natural)
Attacks: Bite +5 melee, 2 claws +0 melee
Damage: Bite 1d4, claw 1d3
Face/Reach: 2½ ft by 2½ ft / 5 ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, smite good, smite law
Special Qualities: Icewalking, cold subtype, immunities, acid resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, fire resistance 5, sonic resistance 5, blindsight, keen senses, SR 6
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 6
Skills: Escape Artist +3, Listen +3, Search +1, Spot +3
Feats: Hover
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Challenge Rating: 1
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
SA–Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of cold, 15 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 1d6, Reflex half DC 12.
SA–Smite Good (Su): 1/day, deal an additional +3 damage against a good foe.
SA–Smite Law (Su): 1/day, deal an additional +3 damage against a lawful foe.
SQ–Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces must be icy. It is always in effect.
SQ–Immunities (Ex): Immune to polymorphing, petrification, sleep, paralysis.
SQ–Blindsight (Ex): Dragons can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibrations and other environmental clues); this dragon's range is 30 feet.
SQ–Keen Senses (Ex): Dragons can see four times as well as humans in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. They also have darkvision (range 100 feet).
SQ–Cold Subtype (Ex): Cold immunity, double damage from fire except on a successful save.
WYRMLING ANARCHIC FIENDISH WHITE DRAGON
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiny Dragon (Cold)
Hit Dice: 3d12+3 (22 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 60 ft, fly 150 ft (average), swim 60 ft, burrow 30 ft
AC: 14 (+2 size, +2 natural)
Attacks: Bite +5 melee, 2 claws +0 melee
Damage: Bite 1d4, claw 1d3
Face/Reach: 2½ ft by 2½ ft / 5 ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, smite good, smite law
Special Qualities: Icewalking, cold subtype, immunities, acid resistance 5, electricity resistance 5, fire resistance 5, sonic resistance 5, blindsight, keen senses, SR 6
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 6
Skills: Escape Artist +3, Listen +3, Search +1, Spot +3
Feats: Hover
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Challenge Rating: 1
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
SA–Breath Weapon (Su): Cone of cold, 15 feet long, every 1d4 rounds; damage 1d6, Reflex half DC 12.
SA–Smite Good (Su): 1/day, deal an additional +3 damage against a good foe.
SA–Smite Law (Su): 1/day, deal an additional +3 damage against a lawful foe.
SQ–Icewalking (Ex): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces must be icy. It is always in effect.
SQ–Immunities (Ex): Immune to polymorphing, petrification, sleep, paralysis.
SQ–Blindsight (Ex): Dragons can ascertain creatures by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibrations and other environmental clues); this dragon's range is 30 feet.
SQ–Keen Senses (Ex): Dragons can see four times as well as humans in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. They also have darkvision (range 100 feet).
SQ–Cold Subtype (Ex): Cold immunity, double damage from fire except on a successful save.
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Grog said:
Girallons are tough. My CR Estimator gives them a 6, but I think I agree with your 7.
Ogres aren't too bad at CR 2, but they could be higher. Really, I think bugbears are CR 1.5 and ogres are 2.5.
My CR Estimator gives the tendriculos a 9. I've had no real experience with them, so I won't comment further.
Dragon CRs are being discussed in the House Rules forum extensively at the moment (on a hijacked thread named 'dragons').
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Mr. Greathouse, how did you calculate the CR for the tendricolous? Does your generator take regeneration into account, and how does it do so?
(Perhaps if I type regeneration 10 in the SQ line; is it valued differently than if I type in DR 5/+1?)
(Perhaps if I type regeneration 10 in the SQ line; is it valued differently than if I type in DR 5/+1?)
