D&D (2024) Potion miscibility, permanent effects and using potions in the future.

[billd91]

My recommendation is to stop using the potion miscibility table. It disappeared after the AD&D days and that's where it should have stayed.

 

[ezo]

I was going to say almost exactly this.

Any major differences??

I know if I was the player and had a choice, I would choose Speed as that would make my PC pretty insane... especially using the 2024 rules where the Monk class is already OP now.

 

[aco175]

I like what @Swarmkeeper said above in asking the players. The monk's player might have an idea for him in the game and a path that they wanted to create. Having the option of either may be cooler for the player, and thus more fun. This option might open up to all the players thinking that they should drink every potion until they get something cool though and more break the game. Either power is powerful and only partially breaks things. I would go with the funnest for the players and learn for next campaign.

The 2nd part about every future potion being subject to the mixing table, I might keep it simple and have it so that after the hour passes, the effect is permanent. No future mixing needed. It is no longer a magical effect that is ongoing. Unless you want NPCs dispelling it and nerfing the power in anti-magic cones and such. You could use this as an option to get rid of it, but I'm more on the side of letting the chips fall since you bought the chart into the game and are using it. Again, learn for next campaign is the group still wants to use it.

 

[Alzrius]

Any major differences??

I know if I was the player and had a choice, I would choose Speed as that would make my PC pretty insane... especially using the 2024 rules where the Monk class is already OP now.

Only in that I'd default to a random roll if there was no consensus about what was simplest, rather than letting the PC choose. But otherwise I agree that the Strength increase is the simplest, and that the player shouldn't be treated as being permanently under the effect of a potion from then on (i.e. no needing to roll a miscibility check every time they subsequently drink a potion).

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

In game terms, Permanent is a duration. If the effect were instantaneous, it would change their strength and couldn't be dispelled. Instead, the duration has gone from 1 hour to permanent and can, therefore, be dispelled.

So, I'd say the mixing table still applies. Since they have a mixing table draw-back which could, potentially, think twice about using other potions (like healing, which are the most common and most boring potions to drink). It gives the monk the CHOICE to keep the effect and have to worry about what might happen if they drink another potion OR dispel the effect and go back to normal potion use.

I"m not sure how punitive potion mixing is since I don't know the table but, it seems to me that the potential game-breaking effect of having permanent Haste or 28STR is balanced by the randomness of drinking potions or, going without ever drinking another potion.

I'd let them choose whichever spell or just roll randomly since both spells have pros and cons.

 

[Ferrousbones]

Question 1: Which should I make permanent? It says to make the "simplest effect" permanent. I am wondering if Haste or a permanent 27 Strength is more simple. I am guessing Strength?

Qestion 2: How does this work days from now when the PC drinks another potion? For example a potion of giant Strength lasts 1 hour, but it is permanent on this PC. So if 5 days from now he drinks a potion of healing do I roll on the table again, or is it assumed after 1 hour that the Giant Strength potion is done even though the effects aren't.

Q1: Permanent 27 in Strength is definitely simpler than permanent Haste, especially when you consider the interactions of a permanently Hasted Monk.

Q2: Consider this line from the rule (emphasis mine): "The strange ingredients used in creating potions can result in unpredictable interactions." While the effects of the potion are permanent, the ingredients wouldn't be, so I would say that once the *standard duration of the permanent potion is past, there would be no need to roll on the table again, unless that character, again, drinks 2 potions at once.

Edit for clarity about duration.

 

[James Gasik]

I look at it this way. If you don't want a particular result to happen at the table, you shouldn't make it possible in the first place. By using the potion miscibility table, the door was opened for a character to become incredibly powerful.

Retroactively trying to nerf or balance this after the fact is something that should be discussed with the group- if people playing Monopoly put money on Free Parking, then when someone landed there started to consider reducing the payout, that's a problem.

I'm not saying that permanent super strength or haste isn't a problem in of itself, but suddenly saying "oh well, you see, now if you actually win the lottery, I'm altering the deal- pray I don't alter it any further". I mean, if a character died from potion miscibility due to poison and internal explosion, would the player expect to have the table result suddenly rebalanced?

Ultimately, yes, you must do what is necessary to make the game fun. But apparently there was a thought that Potion Drinking Lottery would be fun, right?

If the player is reasonable, they will likely accept attempts to balance things. But it's not completely unreasonable that they may have some resentment. Think of it like this- if someone introduces the Deck of Many Things to their game, and one character gets 3 wishes, a castle, a free level, thousands of gold pieces, and a powerful magic item, choosing this time to start swinging the nerf bat seems a bit short sighted.

Just a few thoughts for consideration.

 

[TheSword]

First, the book (2014 anyway...) says to use the simplest effect or the one which is most fun. Since this is the player's character, I would give the player the choice.

However, if you are ruling only simplest, then defintely Strength IMO. One static number, which impacts set things with a static bonus, OR haste which doubles speed, +2 AC and DEX saves bonus, and an addition action each turn.

STR 27 is +8, which is great of course, but not game breaking for a PC like a Monk. Giving a Monk double their already insane speed capabilities, more AC and even better DEX saves, and another dash, attack, etc. without having to spend ki would be more broken IMO.

The STR bonus, while impressive, is basically a +3 to attack and damage rolls 90% of the time. Monks might have Althetics proficiency, but just as often don't IME.

Either one will be very beneficial to the PC, but since you decided to allow a variant in a RAW game, if you find you don't like it you'll have to just accept it this time IMO and know better for next time.


After the hour, the Strength potion ends. The effects have become permanent due to combining with the Speed potion, but the potion itself is no longer in play, so to say.

So, to be clear, the effects of the Strength potion are permanent, not the potion, itself.

it’s only +3 to attack and damage if the monk has Dex 20 a unlikely at level 20 considering how MAD the class is. It’s more likely to be +4 or +5. That’s going to be adding 20-25+ more damage every round and making every hit pretty much guaranteed.

Monk is not a high AC class. +2 AC is likely to make little difference at level 9+ where monster attack bonuses quickly outpace AC growth.

Haste doesn’t give an extra Action it gives a very limited set of actions. Dash, Hide, a single Attack, Disengage or Utilize. For a barbarian, fighter or rogue this would be amazing but for a monk it is likely to be useful but not outside the pale. Monks can already do several of these things with their own abilities.

Finally speed is useful but a 9th level monk is already faster than any other character. Being three times as fast instead of just double doesn’t meaningfully make a difference, unless the player is cheesing that in some other way.

 

[ezo]

it’s only +3 to attack and damage if the monk has Dex 20 a unlikely at level 20 considering how MAD the class is. It’s more likely to be +4 or +5. That’s going to be adding 20-25+ more damage every round and making every hit pretty much guaranteed.

DEX 20 is pretty much a given by 9th IME for monks. WIS is secondary, CON last. The rest don't matter really much at all.

So, with low ACs PCs hit most of the time anyway, and with HP bloat seeing creatures go down faster is a positive in my book.

Monk is not a high AC class. +2 AC is likely to make little difference at level 9+ where monster attack bonuses quickly outpace AC growth.

Monk AC is secondary only to tanks really. While not "high" they are not low by any means. Giving them even more AC all the time will make a difference--roughly 10% of the time.

Haste doesn’t give an extra Action it gives a very limited set of actions. Dash, Hide, a single Attack, Disengage or Utilize.

Yeah, I know. And what will a monk would normally have to spend a bonus action and ki for now is free. That might already be the case in 2024--I don't know and don't care to. 2024 is just another step towards ruining the game IMO.

For a barbarian, fighter or rogue this would be amazing but for a monk it is likely to be useful but not outside the pale. Monks can already do several of these things with their own abilities.

Right, costing their bonus action and/or ki. Now with Speed a monk could use that bonus action for extra attacks instead of wasting it on dashing or disengaging, etc.

Finally speed is useful but a 9th level monk is already faster than any other character. Being three times as fast instead of just double doesn’t meaningfully make a difference, unless the player is cheesing that in some other way.

It makes a huge difference. I already have a 2014 monk speed monkey who loves to run in to strike and run out because he has the extra speed. A while back I kicked the PCs collective butts at 7th level with Quicklings because of their speed. Doubling an already fast creature makes hit and run practically guaranteed and sucks for the DM.

So, yeah, I stand by what I said. STR is the lesser of the two evils IMO.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Permanent is dispellable. I'm not sure how often people are targeted by dispel magic in most games but this doesn't seem like a big problem for a game or game breaking in any way. The monk will get some good use out of it for a while until an enemy decides to end it.

If I play a Wizard and see a Hasted enemy, that's my primary target for a Dispel Magic. Then that enemy gets to spend it's next turn with 0 move.