Power Attack too useful? When is it NOT taken?

[two]

I've never realy seen an effective "pure offensive" PC.

Honestly. Those raging low-AC characters just are never worth it.

They rage. They charge. They hit. Unless they kill the thing in one swing (not likely at levels aboev 3 or 4) they then get full attacked by whatever it is and lose 1/3 to 1/2 of their hit points.

Then next round they kill whatever it is they charged, and are forced to immediately confront 1-2-3-4 or whatever other enemy fighter types, who get full attacks and etc. and typically squish the barbarian quickly.

Low AC fighters, of whatever variety, are a detriment to the party very often because they burn up valuable resource -- actions! The cleric has to try to save the idiot, or the rogue throws potions down the barbarian's throat, or the party can't retreat when they want to, or etc.

Typically, at some point, we just get frustrated watching the heavy hitter hit once for 25 points and then take 35 points of damage in return. Then kill something, and get whacked for another 25.

If you are a melee PC with an AC of 22 or lower at level 7, that's really pitiful and I can't see how you are going to survive for long without forcing your party to continually save you.

For fighters, tower shields are really an under-utilized option. Simple full plate + shield gets you to 20. I don't see the problem having your fighters getting at least AC 25 by level 7 unless they are going out of their way to ignore AC.

 

[Thanee]

I've never realy seen an effective "pure offensive" PC.

Karmic Strike is the key. Some form of Fast Healing doesn't hurt, either.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shadowdweller]

Ok, we've established that a properly built THF warrior can do lots of damage with Power Attack. How is that unbalanced?

Most TWF users take Power Attack. Again, how is that unbalanced?

I'm generally of the opinion that MERELY because a feat, spell, or what have you is commonly taken somehow makes it broken is a very poor line of reasoning. It's like saying that because wizards frequently take fireball it's somehow unbalancing.

Fact is, fighter-types NEEDED the power boost in 3.5. And that it should play to an already existing strength (combat damage) rather encroaching on the niche of some other class makes it MORE balancing rather than less so.

 

[S'mon]

Shadowdweller - I agree with you completely.

I've never realy seen an effective "pure offensive" PC.

Honestly. Those raging low-AC characters just are never worth it.

They rage. They charge. They hit. Unless they kill the thing in one swing (not likely at levels aboev 3 or 4) they then get full attacked by whatever it is and lose 1/3 to 1/2 of their hit points.

I agree with this, but with a proviso. Raging charging half-orc barbarians always seem to play out exactly like this. However, I've found that a high-attack low-defense PC can be effective, but they must show far _more_ tactical awareness than their high-AC counterparts. Never charge, unless you can be pretty sure to take the enemy down in that round. Against strong melee foes, you need to not charge, rather Ready to strike any enemy approaching (then, ideally, 5' step out of their threatened area). A Readied power attack vs a charging opponent can be a devastating tactic; and it lets you shelter in the saftey of your own line rather than charging into the thick of the enemy. The characters who _should_ charge the enemy are high-level Monks and other extremely defense-oriented types. If a 2h-PA Fighter does charge, it should be after the enemy has acted and are eg surrounding the Monk - assuming the party Wizard has already Fireballed and some foes are still standing, that's a perfect chance to wipe out the survivors.

 

[S'mon]

IMC the typical Fighter-7 PC would have +9 for Full Plate +1, +1 DEX, AC 20, maybe 21 if they were lucky and found a +1 ring of protection or amulet of natural armour. If they used sword & board they'd probably have a +1 heavy shield for AC 23-24. This is the kind of level where they might start finding/buying +2 gear, so a particularly rich and well equipped Fighter-7 w greatsword would have +10 armour from +2 full plate, +1 DEX +1 ring = AC 22; add +2 shield that makes AC 26, which would be the maximum I'd expect to see. In practice many Fighters wear chain shirts (esp if multiclassed) with maybe +2 DEX, so ACs 3 points lower, ca AC 17 at the low end to AC 23 tops.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Going for high offense does necessarily mean charging foolishly and sucking up full attacks by the enemy. Readied actions, reach weapons, Hold the Line, Combat Reflexes, even Close Quarter Fighting can all be used to increase offensive output while giving a defensive tactical edge.

As for "pure offense", I am not speaking of a single character in isolation. When an entire party specializes in taking down the enemy quickly, even a stupid Barbarian will often work well enough.

 

[two]

Going for high offense does necessarily mean charging foolishly and sucking up full attacks by the enemy. Readied actions, reach weapons, Hold the Line, Combat Reflexes, even Close Quarter Fighting can all be used to increase offensive output while giving a defensive tactical edge.

As for "pure offense", I am not speaking of a single character in isolation. When an entire party specializes in taking down the enemy quickly, even a stupid Barbarian will often work well enough.

Granted. I agree.

It's not very often, however, that you get a barbarian or high-offensive type that is good at readied actions, thinking tactically, etc. Even reach weapons are often a stretch; they don't do as much damage, directly after all, as a boring greatsword.

It's also often the case that the entire party isn't optimized for offense, i.e. everybody working to kill the bad guys as quickly as possible (and their PC's built that way). I've never actually been in a party like that -- but we have had on the other hand many high offense/low defense PC's.

It's like this: high offense/low defense only works in certain circumstances in certain party's, but in those circumstances they are fine.

Thing is, those circumstances don't happen a lot, and people don't seem to modify their characters very much even when the party is best at scouting, defensive/drawn-out battles, etc. It's like there are always these guys scattered in every possible type of party.

It's somewhat aggravating.

As a GM, it's pitifully easy to deal with these high offense/low defense types, that's the hilarious thing. It's much more difficult to challenge a high AC, reasonable-to-good saves fighter adept at both ranged, close, and special combat manoevers.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It's somewhat aggravating.

As a GM, it's pitifully easy to deal with these high offense/low defense types, that's the hilarious thing. It's much more difficult to challenge a high AC, reasonable-to-good saves fighter adept at both ranged, close, and special combat manoevers.

True. Anything that is a real challenge to these strong defense, broad offense PCs is likely to kill everyone else first.

 

[Victim]

I've never realy seen an effective "pure offensive" PC.

Honestly. Those raging low-AC characters just are never worth it.

They rage. They charge. They hit. Unless they kill the thing in one swing (not likely at levels aboev 3 or 4) they then get full attacked by whatever it is and lose 1/3 to 1/2 of their hit points.

Then next round they kill whatever it is they charged, and are forced to immediately confront 1-2-3-4 or whatever other enemy fighter types, who get full attacks and etc. and typically squish the barbarian quickly.

Low AC fighters, of whatever variety, are a detriment to the party very often because they burn up valuable resource -- actions! The cleric has to try to save the idiot, or the rogue throws potions down the barbarian's throat, or the party can't retreat when they want to, or etc.

Typically, at some point, we just get frustrated watching the heavy hitter hit once for 25 points and then take 35 points of damage in return. Then kill something, and get whacked for another 25.

If you are a melee PC with an AC of 22 or lower at level 7, that's really pitiful and I can't see how you are going to survive for long without forcing your party to continually save you.

For fighters, tower shields are really an under-utilized option. Simple full plate + shield gets you to 20. I don't see the problem having your fighters getting at least AC 25 by level 7 unless they are going out of their way to ignore AC.

I think you're overrating the importance of high AC. Using even decent tactics and spell support, high offense characters can effectively defend themselves early on and still kill stuff even faster than defensive characters so that they take less damage in later rounds.

First of all, having a high AC does nothing unless people attack you. Not everyone in the party can have full plate, tower shield, plus miscellaneous bonuses - having super tank armor can mean that enemies look for softer targets. Most rogues are going to have fairly high offense (if they can sneak attack) and moderate defense (light armor, but high dex, usually no shield, d6 HD). If your fighter is very high defense and low offense, you aren't giving intelligent foes a good reason not to squash your flanking buddy first. If you're a Devoted Defender or something so you can redirect attacks back to your high AC, or if the entire group is super high AC, that's one thing. But in many situations, you're just shifting attacks to more vulnerable targets if your defensive ability comprises your offense too much. Even a raging barbarian can have decent AC and plenty of HP, but packs tons much punch. If I'm a melee rogue, I'd rather team up with the barbarian.

Most magic attacks ignore AC (or at least conventional AC).

The spells a group uses can make a huge difference as well. Most groups will have an easier time buffing a fighter's AC than his attack and damage, because of stacking issues and personal spells. And one of the best offensive buffs, Haste, has a multiplying effect from the extra attack. Other spells/items are important too. A Displacement effect allows an offensive character to avoid many attacks regardless of AC. Since a low AC character is hit worse by full attacks because the later attacks still have a decent chance to hit, a slow spell can greatly reduce the damage he takes.

It's easier to build offense around a fighting character then compensate with defensive spells, than it is to build a defense around a tank with super AC and then add offense with other spells and abilities.

Of course, the best fighters can vary their approach to fit the circumstances.

 

[frisbeet]

As should be obvious, at high levels high AC ain't: worthy melee opponent to hit bonuses will outstrip AC nearly every time. Best defence is dead opponents--I sniff a real life corrollary, perhaps. Oh sure, you can build for extremely high AC, but you sac everything else for it.

Topic. Power Attack good at low levels for cleave. At high levels for a bank loan on damage. Even TWF benefits if you can carry one one-handed size weapon, to deal with DR types. And you've always got cleave, a MUST at low levels.