Power Attack too useful? When is it NOT taken?

[S'mon]

FWIW I'd say AC 22 at 7th level was probably about average for the heavier-armoured combat PCs (warriors & Clerics), pre-Buffs/Fighting Defensively/Expertise etc. The lighter armoured ones (barbarians, druids, rogues) more like AC 19.

 

[Psion]

I can't see a two handed fighter ever not taking it. The 3.5 mod makes it too sweet for them. Among other things, one of the things that bugs me the most is that in non-combat situations, it makes smashing objects pretty trivial.

I recommend treating the bonuses from power attack precisely the same as strength bonus to damage.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

This is true. You should always try to take out foes as quickly as possible.


However, there are several situations where it is definitely worth it to trade offense for defense.


In any situation where you are facing one or two really powerful melee foes (both to hit and damage and presumably with high hit points), it is imperative that your focus for the one or two PCS who are holding them off change from offense to defense.

There's a player in my campaign who thinks this way all the time. As long as he's not fighting spellcasters, who should go down as quickly as possible, he'd rather fight with maximum Combat Expertise, dragging out battles in which he does little damage to an opponent who can't touch him at all, since most of his feats are also defense-oriented. He's also fond of Improved Trip, since he can then gain an advantage over a prone foe, which makes up for a lot of his penalty for Combat Expertise.

 

[Felon]

People who rely solely on an offensive strategy are doomed to failure at some point, just due to not being flexible enough for what the situation warrants.

It is certainly good sometimes to have warriors who accept the role of "party tank" with aplomb, instead of two-weapon power-attacking raging low AC barbarian/fighter.

 

[KarinsDad]

FWIW I'd say AC 22 at 7th level was probably about average for the heavier-armoured combat PCs (warriors & Clerics), pre-Buffs/Fighting Defensively/Expertise etc. The lighter armoured ones (barbarians, druids, rogues) more like AC 19.

Well, it's interesting. We just today finished a nearly 3 month long (real time, not game time) adventure where we defeated the demons in the city and rescued the high level wizardress / artificer NPC.

She rewarded us by agreeing to make magical items for us at 10% over creation cost.

We spent 6+ winter weeks (and 5 gaming hours) selling the stuff we did not want and having her craft items for us (she was limited to wands, scrolls, arms/armor, and wondrous items).

The items purchased by each character were:

1) +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, Masterwork Riedran crysteel Falchion powered up to +1
2) +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, Masterwork Longsword powered up to +1
3) +2 Amulet of Natural Armor
4) +1 Amulet of Natural Armor, +1 Studded Leather powered up to +2 Studded Leather (still contemplating a +1 Magic +3 Mighty Composite Longbow, but that will put the Ranger heavily into debt with the party)
5) +1 Mithral Chain Shirt powered up to +3 Mithral Chain Shirt
6) +2 Greatsword

3 of the PCs upped their AC by 2 and 2 of the PCs upped their AC by 1.

 

[S'mon]

Yeah, cheap AC boosting items (amulets of nat armour, rings of protection) are a no-brainer. I don't much like Natural Armour as an automatic thing (I never allowed narural armour items in my 1e/2e campaign), I reckon in my new campaign it (1) is rare (druids are rare, wizards don't get Barkskin) and (2) makes your skin look like bark, rhino-hide etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, cheap AC boosting items (amulets of nat armour, rings of protection) are a no-brainer. I don't much like Natural Armour as an automatic thing (I never allowed narural armour items in my 1e/2e campaign), I reckon in my new campaign it (1) is rare (druids are rare, wizards don't get Barkskin) and (2) makes your skin look like bark, rhino-hide etc.

The Amulets were slightly more expensive because the Wizardress / Artificer had to get the local Druid to help as well. Course, the PCs had previously helped out the Druid, so he was willing to help (for a small fee ) since the XP for the items was coming from the Wizardress.

Rings of Protection item creation by PCs, however, should be relatively rare at lower level, just due to the fact that Forge Ring is a minimum 12th level caster feat. Very few of the NPCs that PCs at lower levels should meet should be capable of forging them. In fact, very few NPCs should ever have the feat in their lifetimes, regardless of their current level, merely due to the number of item creation feats (and other useful feats) and the greater utility of many of the other item creation feats. So, if you get a Ring of Protection, typically it should be because you find them, not because you have them made for you. Hence, Ring of Protection creation should rarely be an option.


But, I don't understand the DM motivation of making someone's hide look like bark as a deterrent to taking an Amulet of Natural Armor in a game system where balance is decided by a fixed set of character level monetary expectations, modifier possibilities (i.e. different bonuses that stack) and rules on exponential cost increases for a linear increase in magical potency. Even the spell Barkskin does not actually make your skin change appearance (at least in the SRD), it merely toughens your skin.

Why would you want to discourage your players like this?

I can see having the players have to work at either finding a Druid willing to craft items for them and who also has the Craft Wondrous Items feat, or finding a Druid willing to work with some other class NPC who has the Craft Wondrous Item feat who is also willing to craft items for the PCs. That's a roleplaying challenge.

But, I wouldn't change the appearance of the character with such an item. That's a penalty to the PC for no good reason and it automatically gives free information to NPCs about one of the PC's items that they shouldn't have. IMO.

 

[S'mon]

But, I don't understand the DM motivation of making someone's hide look like bark as a deterrent to taking an Amulet of Natural Armor in a game system where balance is decided by a fixed set of character level monetary expectations, modifier possibilities (i.e. different bonuses that stack) and rules on exponential cost increases for a linear increase in magical potency. Even the spell Barkskin does not actually make your skin change appearance (at least in the SRD), it merely toughens your skin.

Why would you want to discourage your players like this?

I can see having the players have to work at either finding a Druid willing to craft items for them and who also has the Craft Wondrous Items feat, or finding a Druid willing to work with some other class NPC who has the Craft Wondrous Item feat who is also willing to craft items for the PCs. That's a roleplaying challenge.

But, I wouldn't change the appearance of the character with such an item. That's a penalty to the PC for no good reason and it automatically gives free information to NPCs about one of the PC's items that they shouldn't have. IMO.

*shrug* I don't think any particular magic item is vital to the 'balance' of the game (except magic weapons, pre 3.5e). If my NPCs don't have amulets of nat armour, the PCs don't need them either. The PC can always put something different (and IMO more interesting) in the amulet slot. If high level PCs IMC have fractionally lower ACs IMC than standard I don't find that a problem. They could always use shields or something...

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

People who rely solely on an offensive strategy are doomed to failure at some point, just due to not being flexible enough for what the situation warrants.

A lot of good advice you gave there, Karinsdad.

Going pure offense is probably the optimal strategy 90% of the time in a typical campaign. But real heroes do not necessarily get the option of backing down in that remaining 10%.

Defensive tactics are very powerful and efficient when used correctly.

 

[Thanee]

HERE I have written up a few numbers in another thread, they also include some Power Attack numbers (with greatsword and twin longswords/bastard swords).

Bye
Thanee