Power Attack too useful? When is it NOT taken?

[S'mon]

>>Difficulty of a game is dependent on the DM and the decisions he makes. If he doesn't give you high AC opponents or he doesn't play the creatures at their intelligence level, then it becomes easier.<<

I think the GM played the INT 2 lizards and the desert zombies according to their intelligence level.
BTW we're currently entering a temple likely full of evil clerics, my main worry is failing Will saves.

>> The fact that you "killed 9 out of 12 in a party of 6" in a PBEM indicates that the DM might be fudging rolls as well<<

I have no reason to think the GM is fudging in my favour or against the other PCs. Maybe I'm a better min-maxer than they are (even though I don't have STR 18); I may be the only real warrior PC, the only one with full 1/1 BAB (not sure about the Psychic Warrior) - but all I had to do to 'min max' was give my PC Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon. Where other PCs are doing maybe 6-8 damage a round to opponents with ca 16 hp (if those were regular zombies - 2d12+3, isn't it?), I'm killing with 1 blow, and because I kill in 1 blow I get to Cleave and then do the same again. So in the 5 rounds of combat I killed 9 zombies. If both our Clerics hadn't fled in terror from the Mummy presumably they could have Turned them & blasted them to dust much quicker - although this is a Ravenloft game and their Mummy boss might have been bolstering them I guess, so maybe not. If the zombies are CR 1/2 (and like I said, they were on us in 1 round) then 12 of them would be EL 5, given the support from the Mummy ("Turning" both our Clerics!) it was easily EL 6 per RAW.

>> (you'll note that several people here questioned your effectiveness, it sounds very unusual, even with the data you supplied)<<

I found it striking, hence my post.
As GM I've found Power Attack & Cleave very effective at these levels (the roughly 4-6th range) but it really stands out in this campaign because there are no Arcane casters and no focussed archer types in the party to compare damage output to.

>>Against opponents with AC in the 20 to 24 range (fairly common for 5th level but not apparently in your campaign), your +8, even charging on horseback, should not hit that often. And how do you charge on horseback every single round???<<

I don't - I fought the zombies on foot. The Zeereshi were spread out chasing some other PCs and nothing in the RAW stopped me charging & killing 1 zeereshi each round. I doubt many of the Aryptian priests we're likely about to fight have AC 20+, if they do and I begin missing a lot obviously I'll stop PAing.

 

[S'mon]

Of course, your GM can rule anytime he likes that you can't do a two handed power attack while mounted. The horse's head gets in the way of your swing.

She could, it's not in the RAW though. And I didn't have the warhorse attack, ie I was concentrating entirely on attacking myself.

 

[S'mon]

Wow you really think that 16 of Str is not very high ? According to me one on 100 000 man have a str of 16 and higher in the world, and maybe one on 1 000 000 could have a 18 Str. If you take in consideration that global population is low in medieval era, this not that much. BTW maybe i'm simply wrong and more people have 16 of str ?

Different campaigns will vary of course - according to the RAW, where the typical person rolls 3d6 for STR, 16 is not uncommon - something like 1 in 72 people have STR 16, 1 in 108 STR 17, 1 in 216 STR 18. In D&D the maximum non-magically-enhanced human STR is 23, which I read equates roughly to the real-world maximum recorded strength. IMC a typical professional heavy infantry soldier (eg City Guard) has STR 14, so 16 is above average for a warrior, but not incredible - eg the typical DMG 3.0 Fighter-5 also has STR 16. Most players I've seen create 2-h melee Fighters or Barbarians have STR 18, or 20 if they're a half-orc.

 

[S'mon]

BTW just to reiterate, I don't think Power Attack is 'broken' - if I want to munchkinise I'll play a mounted archer - far safer (horse double moves while I fire, enemy never get into melee range), similar damage output (rapid shot weapon spec'd with mighty composite bow) - but not as much fun.

 

[MoonZar]

Different campaigns will vary of course - according to the RAW, where the typical person rolls 3d6 for STR, 16 is not uncommon - something like 1 in 72 people have STR 16, 1 in 108 STR 17, 1 in 216 STR 18. In D&D the maximum non-magically-enhanced human STR is 23, which I read equates roughly to the real-world maximum recorded strength. IMC a typical professional heavy infantry soldier (eg City Guard) has STR 14, so 16 is above average for a warrior, but not incredible - eg the typical DMG 3.0 Fighter-5 also has STR 16. Most players I've seen create 2-h melee Fighters or Barbarians have STR 18, or 20 if they're a half-orc.

Hello,

The reference should be the average NPC in the DMG as you say, i'll check this out at home ! Thanks you, i learn much here, probably that the average fighter is more around 15-16 of str then.

 

[MoonZar]

Uh Moonzar, to burst your bubble: Staffan is right. Straight from DMG 3.5, p 110, bottom right paragraph:



NPCs are Non-Player Characters, so that bit about "Average characters" applies to them too.

It's a 3d6 world you're playing in. Your extrapolation to the real world is not important and does not reflect the actual attribute distributions in the D&D 3.5 fantasy world.

Okay then thanks you for the opinion, i was just trying to compare with the weight we could benchpress, but as you say this a fantasy world, i try too much to compare with reality.

Don't worry about my bubble, she had been burst many time so far here hehehehe But i come to enworld to get new idea how to run the game so i dont mind.

 

[KarinsDad]

I may be the only real warrior PC, the only one with full 1/1 BAB (not sure about the Psychic Warrior) - but all I had to do to 'min max' was give my PC Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon. Where other PCs are doing maybe 6-8 damage a round to opponents with ca 16 hp (if those were regular zombies - 2d12+3, isn't it?), I'm killing with 1 blow, and because I kill in 1 blow I get to Cleave and then do the same again. So in the 5 rounds of combat I killed 9 zombies.

Actually, in this example, you are shortchanging the Cleave feat.

The reason you got most of your additional attacks is due both to PA and to Cleave, not just due to PA. You needed both to be successful. Plus, Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus didn't hurt your chances either.

So yes, certain combinations of feats can be very nice. My psion has Martial Weapon: Greatsword, Psionic Weapon, and Psionic Meditation which allow her to attack for 4D6+4 nearly every round (without taking a minus to hit like Power Attack ), 4D6+7 if she throws up Animal Affinity Str (which she has never actually done). She has used Metamorphosis to turn into a Troll, so she should use her (enlarged?) Greatsword with that form to do 2D8+2D6+10 (4D6+10 if the Greatsword does not actually enlarge with Metamorphosis, the power does not explicitly states that it does, but it does allow you to continue to use/wear equipment, so that implies that all equipment changes size).

Btw, I once had a character "in the zone" for about 4 gaming sessions. I made almost every attack roll (I think I only missed one or two in 6 combats or so). The DM then killed off the character (not with combat, he overwhelmed him with opponents and said he was just dead, worse terrible DM ruling gaming experience I ever had).

Also, I think doubling the damage for two handed PA in 3.5 was a mistake. 1.5 times was sufficient.

 

[S'mon]

Hi Karinsdad – yup it’s the combination of feats that’s powerful, that’s why I built Brak that way; partly to see if I could be a viable ‘meat shield’ with AC 15 at 5th level… I didn’t expect to be quite as dominant as I have been so far though. I checked the online PC sheets and I am indeed the only PC with full (+5) BAB - there’s a Ranger/Rogue with BAB +4, otherwise it’s all BAB +3 – Monk, Cleric (with STR 9!), Psychic Warrior (his combat posts are always long paragraphs about power points, stacking psionic feats etc, at the end of which he does ca 5hp damage – glad I’m not GMing this), and Rogue. So it’s maybe not surprising I stand out among this lot. I think in a typical game with a high-STR high-AC Cleric and a fireballing Wizard Brak’s attack ability would not be exceptional.

 

[MoonZar]

BTW just to reiterate, I don't think Power Attack is 'broken' - if I want to munchkinise I'll play a mounted archer - far safer (horse double moves while I fire, enemy never get into melee range), similar damage output (rapid shot weapon spec'd with mighty composite bow) - but not as much fun.

How much penalty u got to fire arrow while mounting a horse ? I think with the feat Mounted Archery u still got -4 ? Don't you think this many penalty ?

 

[S'mon]

How much penalty u got to fire arrow while mounting a horse ? I think with the feat Mounted Archery u still got -4 ? Don't you think this many penalty ?

AIR the penalty is trivial (-2?) , and I think with a single move (all you usually need) there's no penalty at all. I played a mounted archer in one game, the only threat she faced was running out of arrows... efficient, but dull.