Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, and Lances

[VonRichthofen]

While the note seems rediculous at first, you could well use a lance two-handed while mounted.

Our perception of the European Medieval knight contradicts at first (at least, that's what mine did ) - but history shows us that Middle-Eastern/Persian/Late Roman Cataphractii used their lances two-handed.
Now they were mostly lacking stirrups as of yet, so they are not directly comparable to our "archetypical" knight, but it has been done.

Thus, the 2:1 turnout could be done without even discussing the rules - you'd just have to ditch your shield.

But I agree: Heavy cavalry ruled the battlefields of Europe for more than half a millenium.
Their lances were deadly during a charge and rightfully feared by all who would find themselves at the receiving end of such an attack. Lances should be scary.

 

[Darklone]

But I agree: Heavy cavalry ruled the battlefields of Europe for more than half a millenium.
Their lances were deadly during a charge and rightfully feared by all who would find themselves at the receiving end of such an attack. Lances should be scary.

You're so right, but that's actually an understatement. Heavy cavalry's dominion of the battles started with the last few centuries of the Roman Empire until the middle of the 19th century.

 

[Machiavelli]

...so you could get the 2-for-1 power attack even while using a shield. Interesting-er and interesting-er.

I guess the reason you don't see mounted builds very often in D&D is the prevalence of situations where combat does not occur in open fields. A heavy cavalry officer and his mount won't fit in most caverns, dungeons, or buildings and still be effective.

So, when they are useful, which is rare, you may as well make them so useful as to render other melee combatants comparatively useless. Does that sound right?

 

[borc killer]

A lance is basically a one handed spear you use while mounted… should work just the same.

I love how much pissing and moaning that one sentences caused

For the record I would like to note that I only implied that it resembled a traditional spear which is a 4-6 foot wooden weapon with a sharp bit on the end normally made of metal or stone, not that they were interchangeable. Just like everything else in D&D the lance is only based on one snap shot of the past. Lances have been around for… well I don’t think anyone really knows for sure, but I would bet that right after someone figured out how to ride a horse they pick up a long sharp pointy stick and was pocking people with it. Because of that you will always have questions on just what type of item we are talking about.

I envision the weapon as a 5-6 foot ashen poll with a sharp steel bit at the end. And I see it being used by a moderately armored knight holding a shield and reins in his offhand and the lance in his other… but resting ether on his special military saddle or in a crock on the shield which is basically how it was used in the mid to late medieval times. By the time the middle to late renaissance rolled around and people were jousting for ‘fun’ knights were decked out on crazy plate armor and did not even using shields for the most part. At least that is how my crazy Planescape infested brain recalls it.

 

[VonRichthofen]

You're so right, but that's actually an understatement. Heavy cavalry's dominion of the battles started with the last few centuries of the Roman Empire until the middle of the 19th century.

That view is very... personal.

By the middle 14th century, heavy cavalry began to fail in key engagements of the Hundred-Years War (Crecy 1346, Agincourt 1415), and while still being a very important shock unit, began its decline.

At Sempach 1386, the Austrian elite knights were beaten by a mob of pike- and halberd-wielding Swiss peasants.

With the advent of the 16th century, the Spanish "Tercio", the massed formation of pikemen, was already the conerstone of any great battle (supported by crossbows and arquebuses).

By the 18th century, the infantry ruled supreme. Cavalry was no longer used in frontal assaults, at least if it could be helped.

Concerning the last centuries of the Roman Empire:

The military reforms of Diocletian (around 300 AD?) show the first hard evidence of a mounting (literally ) importance of cavalry in Roman warfare (as far as I know).

A good hundred years later (410-476), Rome was done for good.


Thus, we might "meet in between" and say cavalry ruled for nigh to a millenium, but no more.

Your numbers (1.600+ years!) are not supported by historical evidence. No offense meant, of course.

 

[Quartz]

A lance is a two-handed weapon. Check the table under Two-Handed Melee Weapons.

Not when used mounted it isn't. Similarly, you don't get 2 for 1 when wielding a Bastard Sword one-handed.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Not when used mounted it isn't. Similarly, you don't get 2 for 1 when wielding a Bastard Sword one-handed.

Power Attack doesn't care how you wield the two-handed weapon, it just cares if it is categorized as a two-handed weapon, which a Lance is.

There are two criteria that must be met for 2 for 1 power attack:
1) If you attack with a two-handed weapon
2) or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands

Note that (1) makes no mention of how the weapon is wielded like (2) does.

The reason you don't get 2 for 1 power attack with a bastard sword (when wielding it one-handed) is because it is listed as a one-handed weapon.

Check the weapon tables for yourself!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Not when used mounted it isn't. Similarly, you don't get 2 for 1 when wielding a Bastard Sword one-handed.

A lance is always a two-handed weapon, with the special ability to occasionally use it in one hand.

A bastard sword is always a one-handed weapon, with the special ability to accasionally require it be used in two.

Similar situations, actually.

 

[Quartz]

Power Attack doesn't care how you wield the two-handed weapon, it just cares if it is categorized as a two-handed weapon, which a Lance is.

There are two criteria that must be met for 2 for 1 power attack:
1) If you attack with a two-handed weapon
2) or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands

Note that (1) makes no mention of how the weapon is wielded like (2) does.

The reason you don't get 2 for 1 power attack with a bastard sword (when wielding it one-handed) is because it is listed as a one-handed weapon.

I disagree. The classification of the weapon is irrelevant. Power Attack is not concerned with the classification, only how the weapon is used. Check the feat description.

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.

Please note that it does not mention classification. Under your ruling, a giant wielding a 2H human sword would get 2 for 1 because it's classed as a 2H weapon.

So, just as a bastard sword can be wielded in 2 hands for 2:1, so a lance can be wielded, when mounted, for 1:1 and double damage in a charge (which, amazingly enough, works out at 2:1)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Please note that it does not mention classification.

It mentions classification twice - 'two-handed weapon' is a classification, as is 'one-handed weapon'.

Under your ruling, a giant wielding a 2H human sword would get 2 for 1 because it's classed as a 2H weapon.

Not for the giant, it isn't.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

A Large giant using a human greatsword is wielding a one-handed weapon. A Huge giant using a human greatsword is wielding a light weapon.

A mounted human wielding a human lance in one hand, however, is wielding a two-handed weapon.

-Hyp.