Power recharging - mana pool

How much do you think utilities are worth relative to attack powers? I'm guessing you think utilities are worth more than 1/2 of an attack power. Would increasing it to 2/3 be enough or too much?

As far as the spamming powers thing goes, I'm not sure your previous idea works. "One idea you might consider is to greatly reduce the amount of mana points, but you only spend mana points when you use a power beyond its regular use." The problem with this is you're getting to use more powers per encounter than usual, which will upset the balance of the fights. I wonder how much being able to choose which powers to use increases the power of characters.

By the way, one important balance issue that comes up is powers that stun. You need to put some type of limit on these powers or your monsters will often be stunlocked to death. This probably only needs to be applied for solos and elites. I think this is the easiest way to do it:

1) If a monster is stunned, it gets a save at the beginning of its next turn with a +5 bonus. If it makes the save, it is no longer stunned and can take its turn as normal.

If you want to make stun powers better: If it makes the save, it's dazed instead of stunned.

If you want to make stun powers worse: If it makes the save, it's not stunned and can take its turn as normal. If it fails the save, it's dazed instead of stunned.
 

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How much do you think utilities are worth relative to attack powers? I'm guessing you think utilities are worth more than 1/2 of an attack power. Would increasing it to 2/3 be enough or too much?

I personally think utilities are as good as attack powers, in some cases more so. I would make them the exact same cost.
 

I think the simplest way to implement this system would be to have two mana pools, one for encounter attack and utility powers (and possibly some other things) and one for daily attack and utility powers. You basically start with 1 in each and gain 1 in the appropriate mana pool every time you'd gain an extra use in that type of power, and using a power costs 1 mana (see below for another variation).
This seems the easiest solution. Note that the number of mana points will then equal the "Total Powers Known" in the main character advancement table (PHB p29).

Utilities could either always add a daily, or add based on which type you pick. The daily mana pool can be used to fuel encounter powers, but that mana pool does not recover after a short rest.
Unless, of course, you do it like this (and don't track utility usage separately)... :-)
 

By the way, I'd be careful of using power surge options. I think they should require healing surges, a separate action (not just part of an at-will), and only restore the encounter mana pool.
First off, while a powers recharging system is neat, it isn't really the most important resource to write a recharging rule for.

That is because the system is already from the beginning designed to allow characters to continue after using up all their big guns.

However, 4E still contains a resource that can stop a party cold in its tracks because one party member has expended all his charges. This isn't spell slots any longer - it's healing surges.

So when I say powers aren't the most important resource, that doesn't mean they aren't important. Only that healing surges are even more critical.

It would therefore make sense to apply these ideas to healing surges first and foremost. That is, create a recharging system for healing surges.

However, I fully understand that would be off-topic for this thread. In here my point is only this:

Making the powers recharge using healing surges as fuel is probably not a good idea. That wouldn't solve much of anything. Healing surges is already a more critical resource. If anything, this suggests the opposite:

A rule that allows you to spend mana to regain healing surges.

This could mean the difference between a party moving on and being forced to rest (which is a much more unfun proposition than being out of kewl powerz, especially when it happens only fifteen minutes after you started the day...)

You can always survive on your at-wills only, but you can't risk combat when you have run out of surges.

To end my post full circle, my farewell question thus becomes:
If mana can fuel surges, what could then fuel mana? (i.e. what resource could be expended to regain mana other than surges/hit points)?


Best Regards,
Zapp
 

I personally think utilities are as good as attack powers, in some cases more so. I would make them the exact same cost.
If I simplified the costs and made everything cost the same (1 EMP, or 1 DMP and 1 EMP), the revised table would probably look something like this:
[sblock]Encounter Mana Pool
Lvl 01: 2
Lvl 03: 3
Lvl 05: 4
Lvl 07: 5
Lvl 09: 6
Lvl 11: 7
Lvl 21: 8

Daily Mana Pool:
Level 01: 1
Level 02: 2
Level 05: 3
Level 06: 4
Level 09: 5
Level 10: 6
Level 11: 7
Level 12: 8
Level 16: 9
Level 20: 10
Level 21: 11
Level 22: 12
Level 26: 13[/sblock]
Not sure I like that. 13 uses of any daily power is too much IMO. Anything less than 11 DMP means you can't use 4 daily attack powers and 7 daily utility powers, and even that seems like too much DMP. So let's set utilities = dailies (at 2) and leave the rest at 1.
[sblock]Encounter Mana Pool
Lvl 01: 3
Lvl 03: 5
Lvl 05: 6
Lvl 07: 8
Lvl 09: 9
Lvl 11: 11
Lvl 16: 12
Lvl 21: 13

Daily Mana Pool:
Level 01: 2
Level 02: 4
Level 05: 6
Level 06: 8
Level 09: 10
Level 10: 12
Level 12: 13
Level 16: 14
Level 20: 15
Level 22: 16
Level 26: 17[/sblock]
I don't think people can use as many powers per encounter as before. For instance, at level 11, 4 uses of encounter powers leaves 3 mana points for other stuff. If I give 2 per daily and utility level, we end up with 22 DMPs which seems a bit excessive (22 uses of a daily item power per day??). 17 DMP works out to 7 daily class powers and 3 daily other stuff or 8 daily class powers and 1 daily other stuff per day. Is using Legion's Hold 2/encounter for 4 encounters too strong? It's unfortunate, but I think we'll have to use different costs per tier of class power. Otherwise the low level utility powers may never get used.

By the way, I also tried a 3:2 ratio and the numbers got too messy. No one likes dealing with multiples of 3.

CapnZapp said:
First off, while a powers recharging system is neat, it isn't really the most important resource to write a recharging rule for.

That is because the system is already from the beginning designed to allow characters to continue after using up all their big guns.

However, 4E still contains a resource that can stop a party cold in its tracks because one party member has expended all his charges. This isn't spell slots any longer - it's healing surges.
I don't think we want to extend the fighting day. Rather, I think we want a way to reuse powers and possibly use more non at-will powers in extremely long fights (not too sure about this by the way, do this and we run the risk of at-wills never being used at all).
 

Not sure I like that. 13 uses of any daily power is too much IMO.

One thing to keep in mind is that mana doesn't have to keep going up all the time. With this system your already greatly increasing the variety and flexibility of a person using powers, they don't need to continuously gain even more uses of powers as well. Even if a person can only use 5 dailies a day, that's more than they get now.
 

I know. Problem is the daily utility powers. They keep going up. At level 29 a normal character would have 4 uses of daily attack powers and up to 7 uses of daily utility powers per day. Capping the daily mana pool at 17 means there's only up to 8 combined uses of daily powers per day, so that's already 3 daily powers less.
 

I know. Problem is the daily utility powers. They keep going up. At level 29 a normal character would have 4 uses of daily attack powers and up to 7 uses of daily utility powers per day. Capping the daily mana pool at 17 means there's only up to 8 combined uses of daily powers per day, so that's already 3 daily powers less.

Its less and more. While you get less dalies, you get more encounter powers. Also, you have the ability to use a daily more than once in the same fight, which is a big deal. One of the downfalls of a daily is you always want to use at the right time...out of the whole day. With mana, you can use it again.
 

Alright, let's try this. We'll go with the Increased Power Selection option. I also think we need to up the mana cost of items, but we can make the first use free.

Mana Pool Option
All characters have two pools of mana that limit how much they can use their powers. Their Daily Mana Points (DMP) pool governs their use of daily powers, while their Encounter Mana Points (EMP) pool governs their use of all powers in an encounter. When a character uses a power or ability that costs mana, that power or ability cannot be used again before the end of the character's next turn. A character's EMP is fully recovered after a short rest, however, their DMP is only fully recovered after an extended rest.

All abilities that cost DMP cost an equal amount of EMP, and the EMP cost will be ommitted for brevity from the costs below. DMP can be used in place of EMP at no additional EMP cost, if say a player wants to use an encounter power but is out of EMP.

The first use of a power granted by your race or a magic item per encounter or per day (as per the type of power) is free. Using racial abilities beyond the first use or multiclass feat abilities costs 1 EMP or 1 DMP. Using attack powers, utility powers, or item powers beyond the first use costs 1 EMP or 1 DMP for Heroic tier powers, 2 EMP or 2 DMP for Paragon tier powers, and 3 EMP or 3 DMP for Epic tier powers.

Item powers are determined by the lowest tier where the power becomes available, and if you have a more powerful weapon, you can still access the lesser effects at the appropriate costs. For example, the Duelist's Weapon's activated power always costs only 1 DMP even for a +6 Duelist's Weapon. A player with a +6 Frost Weapon can choose to activate its power to deal 2d8 damage at the cost of 2 DMP (the 1d8 version costs 1 DMP, and the 3d8 version costs 3 DMP). Of course, a player with a +4 Frost Weapon can't pay 3 DMP to use the 3d8 damage version of the power; the weapon does not have that ability.

Your maximum Encounter Mana Pool starts at 2 mana and your maximum Daily Mana Pool starts at 1 mana. Every level where you would learn an attack power of the appropriate type, the maximum mana in that pool increases by 1. Every level where you would learn a utility power, the maximum mana in both pools increases by 1, except at level 2 where only your Daily Mana Pool increases by 1. At level 30, the maximum for both of your mana pools is 15.

[sblock]Encounter Mana Points
Level 01: 2
Level 03: 3
Level 06: 4
Level 07: 5
Level 10: 6
Level 11: 7
Level 12: 8
Level 13: 9
Level 16: 10
Level 17: 11
Level 22: 12
Level 23: 13
Level 26: 14
Level 27: 15

Daily Mana Points
Level 01: 1
Level 02: 2
Level 05: 3
Level 06: 4
Level 09: 5
Level 10: 6
Level 12: 7
Level 15: 8
Level 16: 9
Level 19: 10
Level 20: 11
Level 22: 12
Level 25: 13
Level 26: 14
Level 29: 15[/sblock]

Increased Power Selection Option
Exactly as in the PDF in the OP, or so I understand. Basically you don't replace your old powers when you learn new ones right? /* Perhaps the option could be better explained in the PDF though, and actually give an example at say level 17 where usually a power is replaced. */

/* Usually, a level 30 character has 2x Epic tier and 2x Paragon tier attack powers of each type (Daily and Encounter). That's 2x2+2x3=10 mana points. I threw in another 5 for utility powers and whatnot, and +1 for the Encounter Mana Pool so you can use both your daily and your encounter in the same fight at level 1. Coincidentally, that worked out to be exactly +1 mana per level when you'd learn a power. I love it when things work out like that :D.

This works out to be about 6 powers an encounter that isn't at-will, assuming they use the most powerful powers. With 10 rounds, that comes out to at least 4 rounds per encounter where at-wills are used. I'm a little worried about the use of at-wills. For instance, even assuming a player uses 5 EMPs worth of utility powers per encounter, they could spend the full 10 rounds using heroic encounter powers with a daily or two thrown in. I'm not sure if that's better or worse than using at-wills with more powerful encounters and dailies.

We could incentivize it with a power recharge option using at-wills. However, I think that might lead to power creep. Even if we do use a +1 EMP if the first attack of an at-will power hits (or ally's hit with powers like Commander's Strike), I don't think a Power Surge option is a good idea. It just takes too much away from the PP abilities or feats or whatever that grant power recovery options. */

Powers and abilities that usually recover other powers are for the most part self-explanatory. Most powers whose only effect is to recover one other power does not costs mana (i.e. Soul Burn doesn't cost mana, while the [Class] Resurgence powers do). Powers that recover daily powers are usable only once per day, regardless if they cost mana to use or not. Divine Miracle sets your EMP to 3 if it's under 3. Epic Trick costs mana, but can only be used once/day. Unlike other powers that recover daily powers, its recover daily powers option does not recover EMPs. For Spell Recall, the first time the chosen spell is used, it doesn't cost any mana. Powers that have a special effect if you have no more daily or encounter powers remaining instead have that special effect if you have no more than 3 DMP or EMP, respectively, remaining after using the power.
 
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I like that version, it looks pretty smooth. One thing I would change is make the EMP 2 at both 1st and 2nd level, as otherwise a person who uses their daily would not be able to use an encounter power in the same fight.
 

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