Powers and Skills

Zelgadas

First Post
I originally posted this on my blog , so it might be a little lengthy.

Here's what I know about powers in 4E as they relate to skills:

1. Some powers require training in skills. The rogue's Tumble power requires that you be trained in Acrobatics.
2. The rogue has been described as being able to do more with skills than other classes.
3. Mike Mearls is working on 4E mechanics. He worked on Iron Heroes, too, which allowed you to do a whole lot with skills (albeit in a way that required you to constantly reference the book lest you forget something).

Add a healthy dose of extrapolation and speculation, and my theory is born. I suspect that many classes, the rogue more so than the others no doubt, will have powers that allow you to attack, defend, and perform utility actions with your skills. It makes a lot of sense to me, and would make a characters choice of skills incredibly important. It would also give you an incentive to drop a feat on Skill Training, because that extra skill might open up a whole bunch of cool new powers for you. I would imagine that skill-based powers would be mostly the purview of the martial classes, but the other classes might benefit from these things, as well. At any rate, to continue the speculation, here are three skill-based powers that I've speculated right into existence. Enjoy.

Feint
Rogue Utility 2
With a quick thrust and a bit of misdirection, you cause your opponent to drop his guard momentarily.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee
weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Bluff vs. Reflex
Hit: The target grants you Combat Advantage until the end of your next turn.

Taunt
Fighter Utility 2
With a mocking threat and a derisive laugh, you goad an enemy into an ill-advised advance.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action
Close
burst 5
Target: One creature within the burst
Attack: Intimidate vs. Will
Hit: Pull the target up to 5 squares. The target is marked until the end of your next turn.

Assassin's Rush
Rogue Attack 1
You flourish your blade and dive headlong toward your foe, nimbly bypassing his defenses to deliver a killing blow.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee
weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Acrobatics vs. Reflex
Hit: Your opponent grants you Combat Advantage until the end of your next turn, and you may shift up to 2 squares. Make a secondary attack against the same target.
Secondary Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Miss: Your opponent grants you Combat Advantage until the end of your next turn, and you may shift 1 square. No secondary attack.
 
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Zelgadas said:
Didn't realize that; the levels have been changed. Are we sure about that? Has it been confirmed?
All the powers previewed so far that had level 2 were Utility powers.

Examples:
TUMBLE, Rogue Utility 2
KNIGHT'S MOVE, Warlord Utility 2
ETHEREAL STRIDE, Warlock Utility 2
 


Taunt
Fighter Utility 2
With a mocking threat and a derisive laugh, you goad an enemy into an ill-advised advance.
Encounter * Martial
Minor Action
Close burst 5
Target: One creature within the burst
Attack: Intimidate vs. Will
Hit: Pull the target up to 5 squares. The target is marked until the end of your next turn.

I hope there's no pseudo mind control like this in the rules. Fighters already have marking. (I hope it's more than a -2 penalty at the higher levels.)
 

MaelStorm said:
All the powers previewed so far that had level 2 were Utility powers.

Examples:
TUMBLE, Rogue Utility 2
KNIGHT'S MOVE, Warlord Utility 2
ETHEREAL STRIDE, Warlock Utility 2
This, also, if you read the stuff about siloing, and look at wizard powers, the utility powers are kept seperate from the attack powers, meaning that if first level characters had access to utility powers, then the example characters we've seen would have them.
 

Falling Icicle said:
The problem with using skills as attacks is that trained skills are at a +5 advantage over other things.
You could oppose skill with skill, but a trained attacker would be at the same advantage against an untrained defender. Class defence bonuses and armor (if a skill is opposed by AC) could also help even the gap somewhat, by reducing the attacker's relative advantage slightly.

One way to help balance it would be to allow the defender to oppose the skill with either another skill or a defence, so that a trained attacker would have a harder time affecting a trained defender, but an untrained defender can still fall back on his basic defences, e.g.

Feint
Attack: Bluff vs. Perception or Reflex

Taunt
Attack: Intimidate vs. Insight or Will

Assassin's Rush
Attack: Acrobatics vs. Perception or Reflex​
 

Falling Icicle said:
The problem with using skills as attacks is that trained skills are at a +5 advantage over other things.
I was thinking about this the other day. It looks like skills and attacks/defenses will be on different bonus progressions, so you can't just create "mixed up" checks, like skills vs. defenses or attacks vs. passive skills. IIRC this issue exists in SWSE, where you make intimidate checks against Will defense and UtF checks against attack rolls etc. in the first levels skills have the advantage, but in later levels, skills fall behind.

By bonus progression I don't mean the unified progression where everything is 1/2 level. I mean the pace in which the checks/rolls/defenses increase through the levels.

If we see the pregens, the best attack roll is +6 (the +10 from the ranger is a big exception) and most fall on the +4, +5 range, but most skill bonuses (the trained ones) are much higher, falling in the +9, +10 range. Defenses can't compete with them, at least in the first levels.
 

ainatan said:
If we see the pregens, the best attack roll is +6 (the +10 from the ranger is a big exception) and most fall on the +4, +5 range, but most skill bonuses (the trained ones) are much higher, falling in the +9, +10 range. Defenses can't compete with them, at least in the first levels.

Sure they can. The highest skill bonus is +10 (the wizard with his silly 20 Int) so the BEST skill is only the same as the best attack. As long as the results of a skill vs defense action is LESS POWERFUL than an attack (as I expect the results of most utility powers will be, at least when it comes to the ultimate defeat of the opponent) then I don't see a problem.

Swapping out attacks for skill checks for the same result would be broken, but not for a different, balanced result.

Personally, I think the examples given as written would work fine.

Fitz
 

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