Practiced Spellcaster Breaks D20

[Particle_Man]

Except that the 5-6 extra spells of the wizard are the uber-high level ones, and the wizard has that cleric cohort that has been advancing to do the cleric spells (and can cast them in the same round the "main" wizard casts the wizard spells). I mean, in a stand-up fight between wizard (plus cleric cohort) and Mystic Theurge, casting from the top spells, the wizard wins.

 

[Antoine]

I mean, in a stand-up fight between wizard (plus cleric cohort) and Mystic Theurge, casting from the top spells, the wizard wins.

What about a wizard cohort for that Mystic Theurge ?

Otherwise, I agree with you : Wiz20+Clr18 cohort win against pretty much any single 20th level character with no cohort.

 

[FireLance]

In Practiced Spellcaster the price of increased caster level is only offset by the purchase of the feat itself.

If you were a multiclassed spellcaster, why wouldn't you take Practiced Spellcaster?

- Malimar

Do you allow Weapon Finesse? Because there's a similar issue.

If you were a swashbuckler with Strength 10 and Dexterity 18, why wouldn't you take Weapon Finesse?

 

[Particle_Man]

What about a wizard cohort for that Mystic Theurge?

Ah, but the wizard spent his feat on leadership while the MT spent his on practiced spellcaster. The MT could spend another feat to get leadership, but the MT is fast running out of feats, a scarce resource. Unless, of course, you go wizard all the way and get 2 more of them.

I am not saying that the MT is unplayable, so long as he takes his practiced spellcaster feat. He only sucks a little bit then (although he sucks worse at low levels before getting to MT). But by no stretch of the imagination should anyone think that "practiced spellcaster" actually makes a multiclass spellcaster outshine a single-class spellcaster. Ain't gonna happen. At best, it allows people to take a hit to their character's effectiveness for roleplay purposes (nothing wrong with that in and of itself, so long as the hit is small), as opposed to being the Gleep the Supermonkey (for you Justice League fans) of the party.

That is, with the feat, you still suck. But you suck less. In fact, your suckage is small enough that you could play the character.

[rant]But without Practised Spellcaster, you suck so bad, that you actually are in danger of bringing the party down with you if the DM forgets to take your suckiness into account when looking at the CR of monsters to throw at the party.

As a multi-class spellcaster without that feat you become a black hole of suckage. The supersucker. The nadir of playability. The rotting corpse of the party mascot, dragged along by a knotted rope tied to your heel. The joke of the Gawds. Fodder for Dire Housecats. A suckiness bespeaking of a self-destructive tendency in the character, and possibly, the player. Wile E. Coyote, with none of the charm. If WOTC's optimization boards had a contest for what would be the LEAST effective non-NPC class character, you would be at the top of the list (Let's see, PHB only: half-elf cleric 5/wizard 5/druid 5/sorceror 5. There we go). Jack Chick would start giving you advice on how to optimize your character. Mothers would warn their children to be good or they might end up like you. Yeah, THAT bad.

You NEED that feat if you play a multiclass spellcaster, or your DM has to go into Care Bear mode with the monsters. In which case the other characters will have a cake walk, because they DON'T suck.* And then the game will suffer. So at this point, your mechanically bad character, because he lacks that feat, actually interferes with the roleplay/mechanical enjoyment of other characters. And it will be ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!! [/rant]

My above rant does not begin to do it justice. But it was therapeutic, so it's all good.

*Exception: If ALL the characters are multi-class spellcasters without the practiced spellcaster feat, AND the DM goes into Care Bear mode, it just might be playable. Unusual, but playable.

 

[Victim]

Comparing just about any 20th level character to another character of the same level with a cohort is going to be rough on the loner. However, in this case, a wizard cohort for the theurge adds very little to his abilities - he's already a 17th level wizard (or 13th at the minimum) so the marginal gain is less than the wizard with a cleric cohort (the cohort adds a completely new set of abilities).

However, the theurge with practiced spellcaster is farther behind than you think Antoine. First of all, if he takes practice spellcaster once, he's STILL behind in caster level by 2 levels, although this deficiency could be spread around or dumped on one class. As mentioned, the theurge is behind in the highest level of spells (the most important). Finally, there's the need to pump two stats for spellcasting, not one. Not only will the Theurge's spell DCs and bonus spells always be a bit behind (unless he wants one of his casting types to really suck), but also the money needed to increase both stats can go toward buying the single class wizard kicking metamagic items.

Another issue is that additional spells per day only come into play if you actually use them. An effective Wizard 17/Cleric 13 probably isn't going to be calling on most of his cleric spells. Only in a real meat grinder will he need them. Except for Heal. Even when buffing, many of the lower level cleric spells will be somewhat redudant (especially if there's another cleric), easily dispeled (although at 20th level, Disjunction will probably be the automatic dispel of choice) even with Practiced Spellcaster, and the time required to fully buff becomes prohibitive, especially when dealing with 1 round per level spells. Not to mention that a Mystic Theurge is more spellcaster than normal clerics, so many otherwise great cleric spells aren't as useful for him.

While a mystic theurge is a nice choice if the group is too small for both arcane and divine casters, as a secondary/utility guy if the party has both, or as faux wizard with divine back up if you think the cleric's player is a moron. But a theurge probably won't be outdoing clerics and wizards at their specialties without a significant difference in player ability.

Thanks, Particle Man.

 

[Thanee]

Well, when Marin turns Wiz7/Clr3/MTh10, ...

Yeah, at this point, the MT gets pretty good, surely better than a straight wizard.

But that's a long, long, long way to go.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Majere]

There was a long thread on this a while back.
Basically Theurges are buffing machines, they buff the whole party and still have spells to contribute in combat.

They already have lower DC's due to having to spread their attributes over more stats and not having bonus feats for spell focus feats. They also lck the top 1 or two spell levels. In effect a party without a striaght arcane caster or a straight cleric but a theurge instead will be significantly and noticeably weaker. Ive played in such a party.
The only real effect of practised caster is to help the character break spell resistance. Not a big deal for a feat, the character will already be struggling.

Zoso

 

[Thanee]

Practiced Spellcaster is also vital for all buff spells which rely on level (like many cleric spells, i.e. Magical Vestment, or Greater Magic Weapon), and for duration.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Paragon Kobold]

It's not a break. It's a fix.

Saying that every multiclass spellcaster would take it is sort of like saying that everyone
using a two-bladetd sword would take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency: It does not mean the feat is broken.

I recommend the Magic Rating rules from Unearthed Arcana. A better fix for
the same problem.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Personally I have a beef with using feats to patch up the holes in the system. Feats should be there to personalize the character - they are too few to be squandered on making a "bad" character option acceptable.

If a multi-class option is suboptimal it reduces choice and punishes the newbie for picking a character with their heart rather than by examining the cold mechanics.

I say fix the system and let feats be used for fun character customization - I currently let caster level stack* & I'd be tempted to make it equal character level.

*Of course gestalt characters don't care about multi-class hang ups.