Practiced Spellcaster
- Thread starter rangerjohn
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uzagi_akimbo
First Post
Vraister said:
Yeah its a good point - but it is not better.
- First off, "Spell Penetration" makes it possible to raise the effective caster level for purposes of penetration (only) above the actual level of the character - "Practised Spellcaster" does not. The actual HD of the character is the limit. So the best possible result would be, that one had the same chance to penetrate spell resistance as a "purebreed" caster. While "Spell Penetration" offers a major advantage. When trying to beat SR 25 with a level 13 caster +2 to your effective level is a massive difference, increasing your chance to do so by one-sixth.
- Second, the benefit- mileage will vary, depending upon just how much your multiple classes diverge.
- Third, it only affects one of a spellcaster's classes - important in the case of a Mystic Theurge (who might actually consider taking it twice ).
- Fourth - While it increases damage output, almost every damage spell is damage capped, so at higher levels this benefit actually becomes nil. At lower levels - well, there are quite a number of feats who have a similar (more damage than your caster level might allow, often lifting the damage cap/level over the actual character level) option, besides several other benefits - like "Bloodline of Fire" etc. It is also an frequent side-effect for cleric domains.
- Fifth increased duration and range - another "advantage" that becomes more and more neglible at higher levels even at "long" range - +4 levels effective range would mean 160' (1-2 rounds of run-moves, or 3-4 rounds of careful double moves ), while the spell already has a range of 400' +40'/level.
Sorry, that is (IMHO) neglible, too.
On the other hand, you do NOT get access to higher levels spells through this feat, do not get extra slots at the spell levels known (who are of lesser power anyway ) and gain no other advantage of a higher class level - such as wildshape, familliar powers, bonus feats, special abilities etc... Of course you reap the befits of the second class.
I have until recently played a Mystic Theurge who picked this feat up when CD came out (lucky coincidence) - and the primary gain I had, was that I afterwards had a fair chance to beat the oppositions SR instead of a fairly poor one (around 30% usually - which made effective offensive casting rather difficult ). I would take it again if I knew I was going to face outsiders or similar opposition with SR, but in say, an anti-undead campaign or for a character dealing mainly in combat buffs and self-enhancment ? Nopes.
And to pick up Thanee's argument - when it comes to sheer spellcasting power - I would pick a 12th level cleric over a multiclass 8th level cleric with this feat any day. Four levels do make a heck of a difference in power
Last edited:
James McMurray
First Post
I don't like the eat. Multiclassing a spellcaster is not as bad an option as it used to be, thanks to PrCs like Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, Cerebremancer, and Arcane Trickster. With those four classes, a multiclassed spellcaster is very viable. This feat gets rid of their primary penalty, the fact that they have lower caster levels.
uzagi:
1) If your multiclassed caster is the type to use offensive spells that allow SR, you can always combine Pc with SP.
2) This is immaterial. When balancing a feat, one must look at the most optimal situation.
3) Another nonissue. If they really need to, a Mystic Theurge can take it twice. Almost all other combinations will be fine with one application.
4) At higher levels you have higher level spells with higher damage caps.
5) It isn't at long range where this feat shines, its at close range. An extra ten feet of range for your close spells can be the difference between being too close to your enemy and being just far enough away.
With the nerfs that have hit many spell durations, 4 extra levels of duration could mean 40 rounds or 40 minutes. That's an extra combat or two at the low end, and any number of additional combats at high level. Een with round per level spell, the extra 4 rounds is very useful. For hour per level spells, the extra 4 hours can make a spell effectively last all day.
For a melee cleric, Fighter 4 / Cleric 8 can be a better choice depending on the campaign, especially if there is already a straight cleric in the party.
uzagi:
1) If your multiclassed caster is the type to use offensive spells that allow SR, you can always combine Pc with SP.
2) This is immaterial. When balancing a feat, one must look at the most optimal situation.
3) Another nonissue. If they really need to, a Mystic Theurge can take it twice. Almost all other combinations will be fine with one application.
4) At higher levels you have higher level spells with higher damage caps.
5) It isn't at long range where this feat shines, its at close range. An extra ten feet of range for your close spells can be the difference between being too close to your enemy and being just far enough away.
With the nerfs that have hit many spell durations, 4 extra levels of duration could mean 40 rounds or 40 minutes. That's an extra combat or two at the low end, and any number of additional combats at high level. Een with round per level spell, the extra 4 rounds is very useful. For hour per level spells, the extra 4 hours can make a spell effectively last all day.
For a melee cleric, Fighter 4 / Cleric 8 can be a better choice depending on the campaign, especially if there is already a straight cleric in the party.
uzagi_akimbo
First Post
James McMurray said:
Sorry, I tend to disagree. for a multiclass catser, the primary penalty is lagging behind (often severly) with higher level spells and slots to use metamagiced spells in.
In comparison an 8th level cleric/xxx 4th would have no access to Heal, Slay living, Raise Dead, Mass /Stat Buff, Stone Body, Banishment or even Flame Strike, which his 12th level counterpart would have. He would have less spells in the lower level slots, too - which means, he would run out of essential spells faster, requiring a rest to recover.
For a wizard, he would miss out on Teleport, Wall of Force, Feeblemind, Firebrand, Geas, Magic Jar, Dominate Person, Anti Magic Field, True Seeing, Disintegrate and Permanency. Besides all the spells of the 8th level colleague simply bouncing of a Globe of Invulnerabilty....
Call me weird, but I think that massive difference in casting power and a severe, primary penalty. Getting on average a 20% longer spell duration and better chance to affect offensively through spending a feat in no way makes up for this . And assuming he was aimed at a combat build, he would just have used up a feat away from fighter builds.
1) He can and spend two feats (the result of advancing 6 levels, unless he gets to spend a wizard bonus feat on spell penetration - usually this doesn't happen for clerics and druids) - at least one precious feat of which his purebreed colleague gets to spend on something useful to increase his efficency even more.
2) Immaterial ? Well - even getting four more levels in duration, range and spell casting power is not even denting the loss incurred through not having the higher level spells. And _very_ few builds have four levels in an extraenous class and still claim efficency.
3) See my reply to 1). At 15th level, a non-human mystic theurge has had the grand total of 6 feats to spend, a human has 7. Using one third of these up, simply to keep his chance of penetrating SR up to a single class caster, is a major sacrifice. I never really met a caster who had too many feat too spend, but maybe I am missing an exotic build with a vast abundance of metamagic feats to pick at leisure.
4) At higher levels, a purebreed caster always has the extra slots to use maximized, widened and empowered damage spells that the multiclass caster has not, even if he spends this feat (I have yet to see damage oriented caster build without either the maximize or empowered feat ) . Which enables the singleclass caster to deal far more damage, without raising a sweat. of course, he also has access to spells with higher damage caps first, besides this.
5) If 10' extra range become an issue of being within attack range yourself, I assume we are talking either very low-level characters or a defensively inept group (which should not be the measure for the usefulness of a feat, IMHO ). And given open, level ground (and an adequately buffed opposition), I daresay that even at level 12+, "close" range will leave any caster within charge range of an NPC opposition, unless that charge can be blocked through terrain or an ally. A 14th level caster's "close" range spell has only 60' range - and with spells like Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, Fly, Haste or a coordinated Dimension Door, even an 18th level caster is within easy charge range - and likely toast ! 10' more or less at close range are a sad joke if you do the math, sorry. What keeps the enemy away from the casters is intelligent deploy and initiative, not superior range of spells.
The question is not how many rounds/minutes or even extra hours are gained from the spell, but how big the relative increase gained through this feat is - which is very hard (except at very low levels, say with a cleric/fighter 2/4 ) to raise above 20 - 30%. While even two levels more in the purebred caster allows you the use of an Extended xxxx-spell., which gives you 100% duration increase.
And in my experience , the Fighter/Cleric 4th/8th is useful mainly in campaigns featuring not too many Dispel Magics, Globes of Invulnerability or Anti-Magic fields. Sorry to say, these are _very_ common in the campaigns I do play and master in. Besides the fact that the clerical buffs need to be cast and maintained before a battle, or said battle will be over. And in those situations, "Practised Spellcaster' does not help either - except by making the clerics spell slightly harder to Dispel.
Maybe we play in very different campaigns when it comes to the degree magic does dominate a fight (IMCs, we have a massive dominance of fighter and divine caster types - arcane casters simply being too soft a target in most situations) , but I am still mystified by your position.
heimdall
Dwarven Guardian
When this feat came out in the Complete Divine, I recommended that one of my players take it immediately. He did. In our experience, it is not unbalancing. He is primarily a Rogue / Cleric and he is the party's one and only in both of those classes. The Practiced Spellcaster feat has been pretty critical to keeping the party alive. Since he has to split levels in both classes, the feat ensures he's at least somewhat proficient in his healing spells to keep the party alive.
James McMurray
First Post
Of those spells, only heal is valuable to a melee cleric. You'll also note that I said "especially if there's a straight cleric in the party". Multiclassing for any non-warrior type is generally a bad idea unless there's someone in the party to fill the role that your primary class would have filled.
The wizard would probably only have lost 2 caster levels because of Eldritch Knight. That means he's only one spell level behind his straight wizard counterpart. One spell level is a lot for a blaster / utility mage, but its hardly anything for a melee wizard wanting to focus on self-buffs and hitting people with a sword / bow.
If you are multiclassed and focused on offensive spells that allow SR, you will almost always have to take both PC and SP.
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Like I said, its immaterial. You can't look at a feat and say "its underpowered for X characters so its balanced." You have to take it in its best case scenario.
See my reply to your reply to 1). If you want to play a multiclassed caster that has to bypass SR, you have to take both feats, no matter how few feats you have.
[sarcasm]Really? You mean single classed casters deal more damage with direct damage spells? What a shocker! [/sarcasm]
That has always been the case. It should be the case. You don't multiclass a caster to deal more damage with your fireballs. You do it so you can focus on something else, either having more lower level spell slots via MT or Cerebremancer, by being better in melee via EK, Spellsword, etc., or by being able to sneak attack with ranged touch spells via ArT.
At the earliset point where it matters, the difference is between 25' and 35'. That's the movement rate of most creatures low level characters face. At its most useful point it is the difference between 65' and 75'. That can easily be the difference between a charge and not a charge.
Then your campaign is not very multiclass friendly, and therefore this feat will probably never see use. So why do you care what ohers think about it?
IMCs magic does not dominate every fight. But it does dominate some, just like all campaigns (or at least all campaigns with a wide range of class appeal. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I personally find the feat too much of a must-have for any multiclassed spellcaster (sometimes a double must have if you're an MT or Cerebremancer).
rangerjohn
Explorer
James McMurray said:
So, your saying a feat which makes a mult-class still sub-par is too powerful?
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