Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[Mallus]

People still have to figure out what these 832 pages are about and if it will be any fun for them.

That's what the Internet it for.

BTW, my only real disagreement w/Pramas's comments is the notion that the back cover of the book needs to be some primary marketing tool in this day and age. Seems... quaint. Might have been nice, but that's not relevant.

As for the price. GTA IV = $59.99 USD. 4e gift set from Amazon, shipped (eventually) 57.99. RPG gaming seems cheap to me.

 

[xechnao]

I think your estimation of "the norm" and D&D's selling target is quite unfair and wrong. The kids, much less the adults, that are D&D's target audience are not as dumb as you make them out to be.

We are talking about people that do not know what RPGs are about. Without underestimating I think it is really impossible for one such as this to be the selling target of the core set as it is.
I personally got introduced to the nerd space through much simpler board games such as GW Heroquest and Space Crusade and still friends had to teach me D&D some years later. How did they knew D&D? Taught from older people I guess.

 

[CharlesRyan]

The current core rules have an RRP of $105, clock in at 832 pages of text, and are very big, heavy and intimidating. Put them in front of a typical 14-year-old, and you have roughly 0% chance of getting a new gamer out of it.

While Chris makes a lot of good points in his blog, and delericho's suggestions don't suck, I don't agree at all with the assumption above.

When I was 13 years old (lo those many moons ago), I was attracted to D&D precisely because of those dense, mysterious, incomprehensible manuals. A glance through the books was full of suggestion and the promise of many secrets to be revealed. The effort required to ferret out those secrets was a feature, not a bug.

Yes, that was a different era, but I don't fully buy the "kids these days" view that D&D's psychographic has been wiped out by the electronic age. Sure, there are kids who will look at the 832 pages of text and say "that looks like work; I'll stick with Grand Theft Auto." But guess what? That kid was probably never, ever going to play D&D--not now, and not back in 1979.

I agree that simplifying entry-level D&D has the potential to broaden the base of entry-level players (I was, after all, the architect of the 3E Black Dragon version of the Basic Game). And I agree that some of the players who try a broad-base entry-level version of the game will, through it, discover full-fledged D&D. But I reject the notion that D&D's complexity and scope is strictly a liability. It is, in fact, one of the game's key assets, even at the acquisition stage.

 

[hong]

We are talking about people that do not know what RPGs are about. Without underestimating I think it is really impossible for one such as this to be the selling target of the core set as it is.

In this day and age, everyone knows what RPGs are about: killing monsters and taking their stuff.

 

[xechnao]

Even if they have WoW?

When I say kids I think of max 12 years olds. I do not know what happens in Australia but here in Europe it is playstation that has dominated these ages for 10 years.

 

[Mallus]

We are talking about people that do not know what RPGs are about.

Who are these people, in the age of WoW, console games based around avatar role-adoption, manga in Waldenbooks, and a generally high-level penetration of geekery into the mainstream?

Without underestimating I think it is really impossible for one such as this to be the selling target of the core set as it is.

Kids still play "let's pretend". Also, they play "Devil May Cry".

I personally got introduced to the nerd space through much simpler board games such as GW Heroquest and Space Crusade and still friends had to teach me D&D some years later.

OK, but there are other avenues of approach. Personally, I didn't play board or wargames outside of RISK.

 

[hong]

When I say kids I think of max 12 years olds. I do not know what happens in Australia but here in Europe it is playstation that has dominated these ages for 10 years.

The average age of the MMO gamer is 25 years old. I have no idea where this meme that 4E is targeted at 12-year-olds came from.

 

[AllisterH]

We are talking about people that do not know what RPGs are about. Without underestimating I think it is really impossible for one such as this to be the selling target of the core set as it is.
I personally got introduced to the nerd space through much simpler board games such as GW Heroquest and Space Crusade and still friends had to teach me D&D some years later. How did they knew D&D? Taught from older people I guess.

Do kids these days NOT know what a RPG is?

Ironically, I think the average kid these days has MUCH more experience with RPGs than even 10 years ago.

Pretty much every console game these days has RPG elements (heh, anyone remember post Goldbox, preBioware when people were thinking RPGs were doomed a la the Adventure game genre?) and games like Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts REGULARLY make the charts.

Throw in anime which liberally steals from RPGs and unfortunately I have to disagree.

You're selling kids short these days.

 

[hong]

Which reminds me, I still have to make up a Nero-lookalike so I can KICK DMC4's ASS. Effin' jumping puzzles reminding me I'm not ninja enough.

 

[Cadfan]

I wonder if the ppl on boardgamegeek ever bemoan about how MMOs are destroying their hobby...?

They bemoan us, actually. Junking up their hobby with dice-fest dungeon crawl games that are little more than an extended exercise in gambling.