You have a power called "Feather Me Yon Oaf" written on your character sheet, but there's a question of how it works or interacts with another game element. You desire to look it up. The game is in progress, so you don't want to waste a lot of time on looking it up. What page is it on?ki11erDM said:
Pramas on 4E and New Gamers
- Thread starter CaptainChaos
- Start date
Slander
Explorer
Has there been any other confirmation of the last comment from that post? :
"WOTC has let us retailers know that the launch of 4E is aimed at veteran gamers.
New players will be targeted in a separate marketing campaign in the fall, likely coinciding with the new starter game in November."
Having the intro primer come later may not be a bad thing. Assuming the primer doesn't have different rules, only less rules, I think it makes sense to have a strong base of happy veterans players available with whom new players can game.
In this day and age, I personally think large majority of new players are going to come to the game through the veterans, whether directly ("Hey, guy, you wanna try out this new game") or vicariously (through reviews and comments). I'd think only a small portion of new players would arrive by browsing the shelves at B&N, seeing the PHB cover and thinking "Hmm, this looks interesting. Let me try this." In this context, positive word-of-mouth buzz is worth far more than any artificial marketing buzz they could pay for.
Therefore, the goal of the initial release was to get a respectable, happy veteran player base which could generate that buzz. If the PHB was a stripped down version of its current form, I think a lot more of the "veterans" would have been PO-ed. As it is, there are already complaints from some veterans of DnD being "dumbed down" or what have you. My personal observation has been there is more positive buzz than negative (for whatever that's worth), which may not have been the case with an even more simplified version. In that respect, the release was a success.
But, and this is a big but, they have to deliver on a simplified, accessable, and compatible primer (no "one-off" rules in the primer that don't apply to the real game). And Jeff is right, in the past 20 years, there has not been an especially successful primer for new players. And to be honest, I'm not sure they will be successful this time around either. Here's hoping I'm wrong ...
"WOTC has let us retailers know that the launch of 4E is aimed at veteran gamers.
New players will be targeted in a separate marketing campaign in the fall, likely coinciding with the new starter game in November."
Having the intro primer come later may not be a bad thing. Assuming the primer doesn't have different rules, only less rules, I think it makes sense to have a strong base of happy veterans players available with whom new players can game.
In this day and age, I personally think large majority of new players are going to come to the game through the veterans, whether directly ("Hey, guy, you wanna try out this new game") or vicariously (through reviews and comments). I'd think only a small portion of new players would arrive by browsing the shelves at B&N, seeing the PHB cover and thinking "Hmm, this looks interesting. Let me try this." In this context, positive word-of-mouth buzz is worth far more than any artificial marketing buzz they could pay for.
Therefore, the goal of the initial release was to get a respectable, happy veteran player base which could generate that buzz. If the PHB was a stripped down version of its current form, I think a lot more of the "veterans" would have been PO-ed. As it is, there are already complaints from some veterans of DnD being "dumbed down" or what have you. My personal observation has been there is more positive buzz than negative (for whatever that's worth), which may not have been the case with an even more simplified version. In that respect, the release was a success.
But, and this is a big but, they have to deliver on a simplified, accessable, and compatible primer (no "one-off" rules in the primer that don't apply to the real game). And Jeff is right, in the past 20 years, there has not been an especially successful primer for new players. And to be honest, I'm not sure they will be successful this time around either. Here's hoping I'm wrong ...
1. No sales text: Fair enough.
2. The Great Wall: My fiance didn't find it a problem. She's a non roleplaying gamer (she plays boardgames). She read the textual descriptions of the character classes, and of the races, and made a character. She didn't venture into the powers sections until she had the basics down, so she never got stuck there. I guess someone else's experience might vary.
3. No Newb Class: If Pramas believes that Newb Classes are a feature, then I question his judgment. Newb classes are a moronic design choice. This is a hill I am willing to die upon. Newsflash, people- D&D is played over a long period of time. If you start someone in a newb class, they'll be stuck there long, long, looooong after they've ceased being a newb. And if you make the newb class fill a decent, worthwhile role, you've just forced anyone who wants to play that role into playing the newb class. Lovely. A GOOD game design would make newb LEVELS, not newb CLASSES. And those newb levels might be levels, I dunno, 1 and 2? 4e has a complexity ramp. You start with one, maybe two per encounter powers, one daily power, and no utility powers. This grows from there. Characters seem easily handled by newbs, in my opinion. If you can master attack rolls and the various power recharge rates, you can pretty much play level 1. The crazy synergies grow into place as you level up, and as you gain commensurate experience.
4. More examples: I also could have done with more examples. I like examples.
5. Poor reference terms: I found the index to be pretty efficient. I haven't had any problem with finding powers because I always write down the power's level on my character sheets, but I can see where I might get confused if I didn't.
6. Core experience is hardcore: Its a real rpg in the gaming system most beloved for its combat rules, so... it was going to have some complexity. Personally, I don't think the modifiers are unmanageable, since they tend to be short term. And there aren't even that many of them. Remember, level 1 is the test level for new players. And at level 1, you've basically got marking, and... occasional one round status effects from encounter or daily abilities? Plus whatever it is the monsters do to you?
2. The Great Wall: My fiance didn't find it a problem. She's a non roleplaying gamer (she plays boardgames). She read the textual descriptions of the character classes, and of the races, and made a character. She didn't venture into the powers sections until she had the basics down, so she never got stuck there. I guess someone else's experience might vary.
3. No Newb Class: If Pramas believes that Newb Classes are a feature, then I question his judgment. Newb classes are a moronic design choice. This is a hill I am willing to die upon. Newsflash, people- D&D is played over a long period of time. If you start someone in a newb class, they'll be stuck there long, long, looooong after they've ceased being a newb. And if you make the newb class fill a decent, worthwhile role, you've just forced anyone who wants to play that role into playing the newb class. Lovely. A GOOD game design would make newb LEVELS, not newb CLASSES. And those newb levels might be levels, I dunno, 1 and 2? 4e has a complexity ramp. You start with one, maybe two per encounter powers, one daily power, and no utility powers. This grows from there. Characters seem easily handled by newbs, in my opinion. If you can master attack rolls and the various power recharge rates, you can pretty much play level 1. The crazy synergies grow into place as you level up, and as you gain commensurate experience.
4. More examples: I also could have done with more examples. I like examples.
5. Poor reference terms: I found the index to be pretty efficient. I haven't had any problem with finding powers because I always write down the power's level on my character sheets, but I can see where I might get confused if I didn't.
6. Core experience is hardcore: Its a real rpg in the gaming system most beloved for its combat rules, so... it was going to have some complexity. Personally, I don't think the modifiers are unmanageable, since they tend to be short term. And there aren't even that many of them. Remember, level 1 is the test level for new players. And at level 1, you've basically got marking, and... occasional one round status effects from encounter or daily abilities? Plus whatever it is the monsters do to you?
IanB
First Post
I think he's missed the point entirely. You don't bring in a new player by handing them the Player's Handbook and saying "OK absorb this."
You do it with a product like Keep on the Shadowfell, with premade characters, etc. I can say from personal experience that this works well. We have a very new player in one group I play in, who never really "got" 3e combat (and who gave up on it after 2 sessions) but took to 4e very easily.
The system is much easier for newbies. Looking to the core rulebook to provide the introductory experience is a mistake. KotS is the intro product.
You do it with a product like Keep on the Shadowfell, with premade characters, etc. I can say from personal experience that this works well. We have a very new player in one group I play in, who never really "got" 3e combat (and who gave up on it after 2 sessions) but took to 4e very easily.
The system is much easier for newbies. Looking to the core rulebook to provide the introductory experience is a mistake. KotS is the intro product.
dmccoy1693
Adventurer
Najo said:
I don't care. Its not for me. I glanced through some of the pages (must have been the class section) and all the colors for the title of the powers made my eyes hurt. Mind you I was with my 5 year old daughter so I didn't have long. That is some poor layout. Color should make the words go pop, not make the eyes go pop. If I had flipped through the pages, it probably would have given me a seizure.
The little I read made my brain go numb. It confirmed my negative predisposition to the game. So, no I have no intention of giving 4E a playtest run. Poor marketting, poor layout. That's enough for me.
Last edited:
Ruin Explorer
Legend
AllisterH said:
As a long time MMORPG and TT RPG player, I can't remotely agree.
WoW is incredibly easy to get in to. You select a race based on a vague description. You select a class based on a vague description. You enter a name. You are in the game.
So character creation was already a HELL of a lot more newb-friendly.
Then you get to playing. Depending on your class your have what two or one abilities? Both of which will likely be extremely clear on what they do. You use the movement keys to approach a quest-giver. You click on him. You read the quest and press accept. You walk towards the nearest enemy (which is usually near-ish the quest-giver), and you press a button with a picture of a weapon or lightning bolt or the like on it. Worst case you just healed yourself. More likely, you threw a bolt of energy, or hit the enemy with a sword, or fired an arrow.
There ain't no PICKING STATS, there ain't no BUILDS, there ain't no "Choosing abilities". Ain't no choice at all!
Perhaps even more to the point, you don't ever have to "learn the rules" until you've been playing for days. All you need to know is you want to make the enemy's bar get smaller whilst not letting your green bar go empty. D&D wishes it could teach people that easily!
If you think D&D 4E EVEN VAGUELY COMPARES to that, then you are severely misremembering WoW. WoW gets more complex fairly quickly, but by then it's "too late", they've already started playing and having fun! I'm not saying you could replicate WoW with a TT game, either, it'd be like your first adventure you started with fixed stats based on your class, and one at-will ability, and got the rest of level 1's stuff over the course of an adventure (which isn't actually a terrible idea, but hard to implement well), but it's clearly easier for Mom to get started playing WoW than it would be for her to get started playing D&D (good god, the number of people's mothers and dads and non-gaming brothers I know who play WoW, really a lot).
BryonD - I agree, if you're a "natural gamer", the PHB will probably work okay for you (better than previous PHBs, certainly), and if you're not, it won't.
Scribble
First Post
Cad:
I think you hit ona number of thoughts I have as well.
It's an RPG, so yeah it's going to be more complicated then the average non RPG out there.
The book is laid out ina way that makes finding things a snap in my opinion. Powers are with powers, and per class. Combat stuff is with combat and ALL in combat. Skills are with skills etc... I've gone to he index once durring game, because mainly the ToC is actually very well done.
But mainly, I think it will have a chance to bring in new blood because the game overall, is much easier to learn the basics of. Less chance for someone to give up and say this is too damn complicated.
I think you hit ona number of thoughts I have as well.
It's an RPG, so yeah it's going to be more complicated then the average non RPG out there.
The book is laid out ina way that makes finding things a snap in my opinion. Powers are with powers, and per class. Combat stuff is with combat and ALL in combat. Skills are with skills etc... I've gone to he index once durring game, because mainly the ToC is actually very well done.
But mainly, I think it will have a chance to bring in new blood because the game overall, is much easier to learn the basics of. Less chance for someone to give up and say this is too damn complicated.
