Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[Fifth Element]

You have a power called "Feather Me Yon Oaf" written on your character sheet, but there's a question of how it works or interacts with another game element. You desire to look it up. The game is in progress, so you don't want to waste a lot of time on looking it up. What page is it on?

I would just check my character sheet, where I noted the page number.

I agree that the index is terrible, but that's a problem with the book, not the game.

 

[edbonny]

Where's the problem? I don't see what's causing the confusion and eye glazing.

I am a decades-long gamer and a DnD fanboy who will be porting over to 4e completely... I am also having great difficulty with classes.

The "Great Wall" chapter (an apt name) has been very difficult to get through. This chapter needed to be more simplified. I would have recommended: a separate advancement chart breaking out powers for wizards; a better explanation behind the need for so many different powers - encounter/daily/utility/utility that are also daily/at will); a walkthrough of a character advancing a few levels; sample characters for each class at various levels; a free PDF guiding your 3e-to-4e transition ("Here's what's different!").

By rereading the class chapter, reading through Enworld posts and posting rules questions, I have more or less muddled through the class chapter. It is important to note that I have never had such difficulties with any of the earlier edition changes. I started with the Basic Set and have transitioned to 1st - 2nd - 3.0 - 3.5 to 4.0.

I don't know whether Chris Pramas will be proven right in terms of 4e thwarting the interest of new players, but the obstacles he discusses have been a hassle for me, a long time player of the game.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Except, you know, understanding all the odds and ends of spells, which are best, which look good but are duds (shocking grasp; get in a fight, have to roll an attack, for a measely 1d6).

Sally may not know that magic missile is far superior to any other single-target spell. Or how illusions work at all.

And that's a poor DM for 1) telling Sally that she cannot play what she wants instead of helping her find something close to what she wants and 2) not helping Sally understand how her character works. A new edition is not going to fix that poor DM.

(Editted to remove Edition flaming comments.)

 

[Pseudopsyche]

WoW is incredibly easy to get in to. You select a race based on a vague description. You select a class based on a vague description. You enter a name. You are in the game.

So character creation was already a HELL of a lot more newb-friendly.

If WotC is smart, they'll make the Character Builder on D&D Insider both free and as newbie-friendly as WoW character creation. But yeah, asking somebody to learn D&D from the PHB is like asking somebody to read the entire WoW instruction manual and web site before actually playing the game.

I do think it's premature to criticize 4e's accessibility to new gamers when WotC has explicitly targeted existing customers with their initial products. That said, I am skeptical of their forthcoming starter set. I suspect most new players will enter the hobby the way they always have, through recruitment by existing gamers. The kid who picks up the PHB (perhaps inspired by a D&D CRPG or whatever), reads it cover to cover, and starts his or her own game will always be the exception. Even then, that kid is the one who will teach his friends to play. They may not know what they're doing at first, but they'll play and, I hope, have fun.

 

[Voadam]

What class are you, what type of power, and what level is it?

How about:

"I'm a 25th level ranger multiclassed with warlord (named Aragorn ), I'm not sure what level the power is or what type. Is it a feat? A class ability? A power? Race or magic item stuff? Something else?"

 

[Rechan]

I am a decades-long gamer and a DnD fanboy who will be porting over to 4e completely... I am also having great difficulty with classes.

Again, I just don't see it.

I understand you are having problems. I hear what you are saying, and see what is confusing you. I just... don't get confused or bored when I look at the book, and don't understand how others don't get it when they look at it.

But then, I've met gamers who just couldn't get/didn't want to bother with the complexity of the 3e Bard, or just scratched their head at the 3e spells, etc.

Maybe it's because I've followed every little kernel of information that's seeped out of WotC in the last ten months, and just built up an understanding so I knew exactly what I was looking at when I opened the book the first time.

 

[Spatula]

What class are you, what type of power, and what level is it?

You know your class obviously. The power level is unknown because frankly, why would that be important enough to write down? So you go to the ToC, see what page your class is on, then you have to flip through the block of power descriptions to find it.

That's why an index of powers would have been useful.

 

[Spatula]

I agree that the index is terrible, but that's a problem with the book, not the game.

Uh... and? This thread was sparked by comments regarding the organization of the PHB. What the heck does that have to do with the game itself?

 

[Rechan]

That's why an index of powers would have been useful.

Odd. I don't remember ever hearing anyone complain about there not being a Feat or Spell index in the 3e PHB.

The power level is unknown because frankly, why would that be important enough to write down?

Because, frankly, it helps you find it? Or because it lets you know what level you got it, if you want to retrain?

 

[Scribble]

I would just check my character sheet, where I noted the page number.

I agree that the index is terrible, but that's a problem with the book, not the game.

Exactly... Pramas, much as I;ve enjoyed his companies stuff in the past, is just picking nits on the PHB, and ignorning the system as a whole.

As a whole, the system is relatively easy to pick up and digest.

Powers work like powers
skills work like skills
feats work like feats
races work like races

Everyone has a combination of the above, and they all work the same mechanicswise.