Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[IanB]

I'd be interested to know how many of the people criticising the game's accessibility have actually tried to introduce a truly new player to the game with it.

 

[Spatula]

Again, I just don't see it.

I understand you are having problems. I hear what you are saying, and see what is confusing you. I just... don't get confused or bored when I look at the book, and don't understand how others don't get it when they look at it.

People are saying, the first time they sat down with the 4e PHB, that they get to page after page of very similar powers, the effects of which and the differences between which they do not yet comprehend, and their eyes glaze over. It's informational overload. It's also boring as hell to read little blurbs of attack after attack that all do just about the same thing. I hit this when I first saw the PHB and ended up just skipping the walls of text. A friend of mine made a similar comment after trying to read the book.

Once you have a feel for the system, the powers make sense, and they're easy to digest in little levelling-up chunks, as you're never looking at more than 4 at a time. To read through 80 of them in a row is a different matter.

 

[Voadam]

Except, you know, understanding all the odds and ends of spells, which are best, which look good but are duds (shocking grasp; get in a fight, have to roll an attack, for a measely 1d6).

Sally may not know that magic missile is far superior to any other single-target spell. Or how illusions work at all.

Are you really trying to suggest the spontaneous spellcasting mechanics of 3e sorcerers are not easier for a new player to play than the vancian daily preparation resource management choices of a wizard are?

Both have issues of spell choice complexity. One has those issues once then they can just manage spell slots per day and cast spells known appropriate to the situation. The other has spell selection choices once plus judging daily arrays with estimations of what will be appropriate to expected challenges and judgment calls for every spell casting opportunity of whether it is worth expending them at that time or not based on what specifically has been prepared.

Sorcerers and warlocks seem much easier mechanically to manage and play than wizards in 3e.

In 4e every PC class appears to be the same mechanical complexity.

There are no less complex options.

 

[Zil]

I am a decades-long gamer and a DnD fanboy who will be porting over to 4e completely... I am also having great difficulty with classes.

<snip>

is important to note that I have never had such difficulties with any of the earlier edition changes. I started with the Basic Set and have transitioned to 1st - 2nd - 3.0 - 3.5 to 4.0.

I don't know whether Chris Pramas will be proven right in terms of 4e thwarting the interest of new players, but the obstacles he discusses have been a hassle for me, a long time player of the game.

I'll have to chime in a "me too" with regard to getting through the "great wall". I started playing D&D back with AD&D in 1980 and I've never had so much trouble getting through a chapter in a PHB. It was just ugly, especially all the [W] references that were not explained until much later on. There must have been a better way to present this information than what they did. It was almost enough to make me give up completely.

Fortunately the game play later on was fun so I was able to forget about my earlier frustration with the PHB, but I should never have been so frustrated with it. If it is frustrating to old-timers, and potentially impenetrable to newbies, then they clearly have done something wrong with that book and especially that chapter.

 

[Spatula]

Odd. I don't remember ever hearing anyone complain about there not being a Feat or Spell index in the 3e PHB.

Feats & spells are arranged alphabetically in their own chapters. In previous editions where spells were arranged by class & level.... there were spell indexes.

 

[Ourph]

I think he's right though. How many new people are going to be able to pick up that book and understand it enough to play?

I was 8 years old when I got my hands on the 1e AD&D hardbacks. My friends and I immediately read the books from cover to cover and misunderstood the crap out of them. Then, using our flawed understanding of the rules, we went on to have years of fun playing the game totally wrong. I admit the 4e Classes chapter is kind of daunting. But is it any more daunting than the 1e DMG explanation of initiative or unarmed combat?

I think most nerdy kids who pick up the 4e D&D books will love the complexity of the classes chapter. So many possibilities, so many loopholes to exploit, so many hours of arguing over whether power X is "broken". That's the kind of Saturday afternoon full of entertainment that my love of gaming was built on. I suspect it will be no different for the 4e generation.

 

[Scribble]

You know your class obviously. The power level is unknown because frankly, why would that be important enough to write down? So you go to the ToC, see what page your class is on, then you have to flip through the block of power descriptions to find it.

That's why an index of powers would have been useful.

There are certain things that you write down on a character sheet.

When you copy the stats for your weapon it has a space for damage, type, crit mods etc.

Same is true for a power. There are certain things that are important. level is one of them.

Sure, a power index would be great, but lack of one is not as insurmountable a problem as is being indicated.

You know your class, and the power level and type, and you know exactly what section to look at.

 

[Rechan]

and 2) not helping Sally understand how her character works.

Ergo, the newb class is unnecessary if the DM is willing to help the player.

 

[Rechan]

Feats & spells are arranged alphabetically in their own chapters.

And it's still a PITA to look up, because you're flipping through the book.

You need your power, flip to your class, flip a few pages. Bam.

I really don't see the problem.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Ergo, the newb class is unnecessary if the DM is willing to help the player.

Whatever...