Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[Rechan]

Are you really trying to suggest the spontaneous spellcasting mechanics of 3e sorcerers are not easier for a new player to play than the vancian daily preparation resource management choices of a wizard are?.

No. I wasn't even touching spontaneous casting vs prepared casting at all.

I was talking about the information about spells themselves. Areas of effect, durations, range, damage caps, what saving throw each spell keys off of, and how all of those add up to determine superiority of one spell over another.

A newb who plays a sorcerer and picks grease and mage armor is likely going to have a less stellar experience than one who picks more enjoyable spells.

 

[JDJblatherings]

I'd say Pramas is right on the mark with his points:
1 - no sales text on book cover
2. the great wall, the classes section is really dense and has a lot of stuff for a newbie to try to absorb
3- no newb class- there is no startign point for a raw beginer , i usedrecomend folks start off as a fighter or a rogue (as thief, people understand playing a cat burglar) but the way classes are now they require just as much gear-headedness to start out with.
4- not enough examples, it's true theee arent' enough examples.
5- poor reference tools- i hadn't even thought about this yet as i haven't tried to play it yet but acckk..the powers in chapter 4 aren't indexed or listed alphabetically in the PHB.
6- Core Experience is Hardcore- Noobs dont' stand a chance ot being able to tackle this sucker wihout a lot of hand holding.

 

[La Bete]

I think Chris has some very valid points.

However, based on my recent experience in introducing new players to D&D 3.5 (at 1st, 3rd and 9th level), and playing (and about to DM) 4e, there is simply no contest betweeb the editions in how easy it is/would be for a averagely experienced GM to introduce new players to the game. 4e FT freaking W.

(I'm sorry, maybe it's just having been in the trenches with new players with 3e, 4e seems like manna from heaven on this particular point to a harassed GM.)

 

[Rechan]

People are saying, the first time they sat down with the 4e PHB, that they get to page after page of very similar powers, the effects of which and the differences between which they do not yet comprehend, and their eyes glaze over.

Oh.

Well, if you're going from page 1 to 320 in one sitting, yeah. But I went to what interested me the most. Jumped back and forth. Flipped through something else. Skipped entire sections (Cleric, looking at you). I also didn't bother reading past level 9 for any class, until I went back for a further look.

I assumed that's how most people read them the first time: they look at what interests them. When all you want to know first is how a wizard works, you read just the wizard, and maybe the rituals. And then you look for wizard feats. And then you compare it with the Warlock, etc.

In fact, there was a thread a few months ago that asked, "How will you read the books when they first came out", and many gave specific sections they would eat up first.

 

[hewligan]

An index would have been useful for MANY people. Clearly not all, because Rechan obviously would never find a use for one, but I think we can safely say that for MANY people it would have been fluffy nice nice.

I too am a long time gamer, dating back to AD&D, and when I hit the classes chapter I just stalled. It was like hitting a wall for me. I tried to work through it, but eventually gave up and decided I would get back to it, eventually. It hasn't happened yet.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I really don't see the problem.

How many times, exactly, Rechan, are you going to have to post in the same thread, that you "don't see/understand the problem"? Really, we get that you don't get it. You don't need keep saying it. Frankly you've gotten into the territory of "threadcrapping" now, because you're not adding anything, and it really seems like the your repetition can have only one underlying motive: to disparage people expressing problems with 4E. If I was a mod, I'd say "Move on", but I'm not, so I'll just suggest maybe you could stop saying that and offer something more specific or useful?

I mean, I didn't have a problem with the classes chapter, but in no way does that make it hard for me to understand why people did, nor to recognize that clearly quite a few people did (and I had no idea anyone did prior to this thread/Pramas blog post).

 

[Rechan]

How many times, exactly, Rechan, are you going to have to post in the same thread, that you "don't see/understand the problem"?

1) At first, I said "I don't see the problem."
2) Then, edbonny responded by where he found the problem.
3) I thus acknowledged what he said, and replied, "I understand that you are confused, but I'm still sure how those can trip someone up," and then went on to say that perhaps it's a complete disconnect; if I think in a different way than you do, then it may be impossible for me to follow your thought train to see where the problem is. I even said that I have met other long-time gamers who are confused with how the 3e bard works, to illustrate that confusion with the class density is nothing new.
4) Then Spatula then replies to say that the confusion perhaps lies in people reading through from the start of the chapter to the end straight, and how that the number of similar abilities, especially how they relate to the rules (pushing, pulling, weakening - the significance can be lost on those who haven't fully digested those conditions and their significance) may not see the relevance of power differences.
5) Finally, I replied that makes sense; the disconnect is coming from the way in which I read the books, and assumed that many others read it the same way: not start to finish, but jumping around, looking at what is relevant to your interests first, contrasting and comparing, and skipping whole sections. Reading start to finish would indeed be boring.

That, in my mind, is a conversation.

If I was repeating the same thing and not saying anything else, you'd have a case. But I see myself contributing to the conversation, which leads me to...

If I was a mod, I'd say "Move on", but I'm not, so I'll just suggest maybe you could stop saying that and offer something more specific or useful?

How about since you're not a mod, if you think that I'm threadcrapping, you report me and see what a Mod has to say?

 

[Aqua Vitae]

"The hobby needs more roleplayers, plain and simple, and I hoped 4E might help deliver them."

The paradox of 4E is that any gain of new players will be significantly offset by the loss of much of its original fan base.

I don't even recognize "Dungeons & Dragons" anymore.

 

[Scribble]

The paradox of 4E is that any gain of new players will be significantly offset by the loss of much of its original fan base.

I don't even recognize "Dungeons & Dragons" anymore.

On the opposite end, I've heard from several people who've said it feels more like D&D then the game has in a while.

 

[hewligan]

Just out of interest, and more for future reference, how does one report someone to a mod?