Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[BryonD]

I really don't see the problem.

Frustrating, isn't it?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

How about since you're not a mod, if you think that I'm threadcrapping, you report me and see what a Mod has to say?

Whilst I think your idea of a "conversation" is a little out there, I don't think there's much point in that if I just tell you what I think, unless you keep doing it

IanB - I have, and even as someone who is considered extremely knowledgeable about several complex MMORPGs (more complex, I would argue, numerically, than most TT RPGs), they were fairly put-off by it by themselves.

When I *helped* them character creation went extremely smoothly and quickly (unlike 3E), but they did need a bit of help. Even my brother, who has played D&D with me since 1989 says he was rather overwhelmed by the 4E PHB at first and note that he was NOT overwhelmed by the 3E PHB.

I think with even a little guidance from an experienced player or DM, this PHB is great, but it can be quite threatening otherwise. Just experience with it so far.

 

[Andre]

If WotC is smart, they'll make the Character Builder on D&D Insider both free and as newbie-friendly as WoW character creation.

This.

The single best element of the 3.0 PHB was the Character Generator. Yes, it was a beta. Yes, the interface was ugly as heck. But it made creating a character easy. My gaming group was able to jump into the game with far less trouble than if we had tried to craft characters by hand.

Add in that many very experienced players have far less time (and patience) for RPG's than we did when we were younger, and I just don't understand not making a character generator available with the PHB a priority. Start with the assumption that no one has the time or inclination to muddle through and design accordingly. WOTC should be making it as easy as possible for players - new and existing - to give 4E a try.

 

[Filcher]

Combat is concrete and more like a boardgame and just generally easier to understand what the goals are. I'd say with 95% of the new players I've dealt with over the years, combat is the main fun thing for them at least at first, whereas the roleplaying part stays intimidating for quite a while.

Agreed. In some ways, the D&D mini game is a good "intro set." Enough of the same rules to catch the drift, but not the choices to confound.

 

[BryonD]

Anyone find the amusing irony in the fact that 4e gets some grief for being too complicated, and then gets some grief (often from the same folks) for being too simple?

Yep, yep - I knew you did.

Wis

Amusing, yeah. But it isn't really ironic.

It is possible to simply be in the middle of the road and end up run over.

Too simple to keep all the old players, but still too complicated to woo in a new base.....

 

[Rechan]

ruemere, interesting points.

I found it interesting that part of the combat chapter is in alphabetical order, but only the "Actions in Combat" section.

Also, I do acknowledge the usefulness of an index, but I find it weird that WotC by far has so few indexes! It was so bad that Keith Baker had to make his own index and put it on his website for one of the supplement books. Supposedly, the reason there is a dearth of indexes is due to the time it takes to compile them, but jeez.

And on the topic of organization, I did find it troubling they stuck the advancement chart all the way in the back of Chapter 2, where you have to hunt for the damn thing.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This.

The single best element of the 3.0 PHB was the Character Generator. Yes, it was a beta. Yes, the interface was ugly as heck. But it made creating a character easy. My gaming group was able to jump into the game with far less trouble than if we had tried to craft characters by hand.

Add in that many very experienced players have far less time (and patience) for RPG's than we did when we were younger, and I just don't understand not making a character generator available with the PHB a priority. Start with the assumption that no one has the time or inclination to muddle through and design accordingly. WOTC should be making it as easy as possible for players - new and existing - to give 4E a try.

You're both dead right, you know. The PHB character generator was a real pos, but it was STILL useful and DID speed up character creation in a way even the Excel spreadsheet stuff people have hasn't. I really hope the terms of the GSL let someone else put together good chargen software, but I'll be surprised if they do.

Personally I'm worried about this because rumblings from WotC indicated strongly that they wanted to make the character generator something you had to pay to use fully, rather being something that could really help people get into the game. As so little has been said about the DDI for so long, I can only hope they're working towards a different model now, one where the character generator, at least, is free and easily available.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'm embarrased to say this but despite having run a few sessions of Keep, I'm STILL reading through the PHB. I agree that every class is a wizard and there are no 'dummy' classes.

 

[Scribble]

Amusing, yeah. But it isn't really ironic.

It is possible to simply be in the middle of the road and end up run over.

Too simple to keep all the old players, but still too complicated to woo in a new base.....

Thing is, I feel the game is less complicated then it's been in a while.

For the simple fact thatt hings are standardized.

I think the very fact that there isn't an "intro" character is part of this.

All characters work the same, so once you get the basic understanding of how the systems work, you can start on how to best use them.

Before, you had to learn the system, and then which sub system a given class had to use, and then finally how to use them to best effect.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Amusing, yeah. But it isn't really ironic.

It is possible to simply be in the middle of the road and end up run over.

Too simple to keep all the old players, but still too complicated to woo in a new base.....

True enough.

WotC has to hope (I'd say 'we' have to hope, but I bet you'd disagree with me ) that they are able to keep enough - not all - of old players and bring in enough new blood to kickstart this hobby again.

I agree with Pramas on the driving, irrefutable need for new gamers. That wasn't happening, apparently, and may not have happened since back in the hey-days of the early 80s.

But I agree with you (Sign: Apocalypse) that "gamers" generally don't need simple stuff. Hell, they may not want simple stuff. I still curl up with the 1E DMG and PHB, just to read the dang things, and I haven't played 1E in nearly 20 years.

Yes, yes - so I'm a loser. But it's my hope there are other losers out there that get a thrill from complexities and powers and options and potential stories. Losers that, until now, have not - for whatever reason - been bitten by the D&D bug.

Here's hoping their bit(ten).

Wis