Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[vagabundo]

I think an additional post to clarify my views on the mechanical variations in 4e, now I'm sure there will be rule creep as supplements appear (I'm looking at you Martial Sourcebook & DMG2). And I dont believe it is fair to compare the number of actions across edition just by citing numbers, but try and think of 4e combat differently. Separate the mechanical words used in the rules from the effects that you imagine are happening.

In my minds eye when I see dnd combat I see the knockdown, drag out brawls of a bar fight, no holds barred, pushing, pulling, swearing, kicking, grabbing, wrestling. None of these actions have a great impact mechanically, but they are all there.

If it is important for the story that someone be disarmed then there is the rules foundation in 4e to support that (although no explicit disarm rule yet, thank god) and many designers here on ENWorld to help with the mechanics. I'd wing it if it was important in-game (basic attack against reflex).

From, my limited, experience with 4e combat it definitely holds it's own mechanically and, although, more abstract I don't have to strain my imagination to see how it all works, I just had to let go of my 3e-isms.

Now at epic levels I maybe stumped if the halfling rogue manages to Trip a Tarrasque Prone.....

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

[Boardgamers] bemoan us, actually. Junking up their hobby with dice-fest dungeon crawl games that are little more than an extended exercise in gambling.

This irony is incredibly delicious to me.

 

[Cadfan]

This irony is incredibly delicious to me.

They have the better case, too. The general category of games influenced by RPGs is termed "Ameritrash." That's not a precise definition, because Ameritrash really refers to a certain style of board game that isn't bounded by reference to RPGs but rather to a larger set of categories which happen to include RPG influences, but chances are that if a game is D&D-like, its considered Ameritrash.

 

[ki11erDM]

The point remains: I can only do what the powers let me. How you DESCRIBE stuff is pretty useless/meaningless.

You and I have been playing a different game for the last 20ish years.

In my minds eye when I see dnd combat I see the knockdown, drag out brawls of a bar fight, no holds barred, pushing, pulling, swearing, kicking, grabbing, wrestling. None of these actions have a great impact mechanically, but they are all there.

Ahh there's the game I have been playing...

 

[SavageRobby]

Part of me wonders if a lack of a decent index isn't a purposeful decision to push people towards shelling out for the DDI.

It will be interesting to see how the Chapter 4 organization will holds up with additional powers and options and such added. More fodder for the DDI, I suppose.

 

[Nebulous]

Part of me wonders if a lack of a decent index isn't a purposeful decision to push people towards shelling out for the DDI.

It will be interesting to see how the Chapter 4 organization will holds up with additional powers and options and such added. More fodder for the DDI, I suppose.

If true, that's a devlishly clever maneuver.

 

[Scribble]

Part of me wonders if a lack of a decent index isn't a purposeful decision to push people towards shelling out for the DDI.

It will be interesting to see how the Chapter 4 organization will holds up with additional powers and options and such added. More fodder for the DDI, I suppose.

Lack of a decent index kind of amuses me... As in game I think I've looked at the index... ummm once. The book is just so well organized to begin with, it doesn't really need one.

 

[SavageRobby]

Lack of a decent index kind of amuses me... As in game I think I've looked at the index... ummm once. The book is just so well organized to begin with, it doesn't really need one.

Obviously, not all of us have your powers of recollection and information absorption.

I find the older I get, the more valuable a good index becomes, but thats just me. I don't fully memorize books like I once did - heck, I can still flip straight to a variety of sections in the 1e PHB and DMG - and I don't have the time or inclination that I once did to meander through books. (This is one reason I like having PDFs in addition to print copies.)

 

[Scribble]

Obviously, not all of us have your powers of recollection and information absorption.

I find the older I get, the more valuable a good index becomes, but thats just me. I don't fully memorize books like I once did - heck, I can still flip straight to a variety of sections in the 1e PHB and DMG - and I don't have the time or inclination that I once did to meander through books. (This is one reason I like having PDFs in addition to print copies.)

I'm not trying to indicate others should have better book using skills at all... Trust me man.. I have a TERRIBLE short term memory, and my powers of organization = none...

In most cases I would be 100% behind the statement the index needs to be better, as I CONSTANTLY use them...

Which is why it amazed me that I can so easily use these books.

Everything is logically in the place where it should be and the ToC is so well laid out, I just don't need to use the index... Again, which amazed me. (I was ready for it to be a problem.)

 

[Harr]

I on the other hand, have used the index quite a bit in my games, and have found it to serve more than adecuately.

I would like some actual-play examples of attempts to use the index that haven't worked. I suspect they are mostly theory, as most of these types of things are.

For example, it's so easy to say "But there's no index of all the powers!!" in theory, yes there's no index of all the powers. In play? In play you will literally never need to search for just the *name* of a power, but for the class and level it belongs to. It's a snap to find. In play. The 4e books are as far as I can see made to facilitate play and to ignore the theory-contemplators and the armchair-editors.