Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

Without 3e (and to an extent 2e, and 1e) as a solid rpg base, i couldn't pick up 4e and just start playing. No way. He IS right about the lack of examples in the book.

I like 4e pretty well, but there's definitely something about it i DON'T like that i can't put my finger on yet.

Edit: What would make me happy is if Tome of Horrors had some fluff text worth a crap, unlike the bare bones stat blocks in the MM.
 

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I think the blog entry reflects my own experience in trying to read through the copy I got... I just stalled upon getting into the class chapter.

fyi, I was biased against the game to begin with, but purchased a PHB anyhow to facilitate the inevitable game I would be drawn into. As it stands, now that I have my copy and spent several occasions trying to decipher and absorb its contents, I am even less likely to try to move to the system. I am in fact, looking forward to going backwards to a Basic/Expert game or using the Basic Fantasy RPG rules which also emulate the red/blue box editions of the game.
 

First off, all Chris' specific criticism seem to be pretty damn near the mark.

However, what I question is whether ANY PHB including the 1E PHB, has EVER been a truly entry-level product. Virtually everyone I know who plays D&D "entered" by one of two ways:

1) They knew people who played D&D already, who taught them the ropes.

2) They bought a boxed set.

I was slightly different.

I heard about AD&D from a new friend, it sound totally awesome, so my brother and I bought a PHB, the DMG, and FRA (haha didn't know you needed the MC).

This did not give us a playable game. Reading the books did not teach us how to play, and did confuse us a great deal (at 9 and 11 respectively, I believe). Not until a week or two later, when amazingly fortuitously, a second cousin of mine who turned out to be a big D&D player turned up did we discover how to play, when she explained everything and designed and ran an awesome adventure for us.

So I think the PHB is reasonable for people who are playing because they know players already, who said "Get a PHB", but I do think, just like in previous editions, it's a bit much for a GENUINELY new player, and it does completely fail to sell itself, that's for sure.

Hopefully WotC has some really genius and CHEAP entry-level products on the way. Seems like an BD&D-style boxed set with levels 1-10, 4 races, 4 classes (or maybe 6 of each) and a campaign or at least a handful of quick adventures for a GM to run would be a very good idea.

One thing I don't see how to overcome, though, is that D&D 4E is "hardcore balanced", in the sense that if you don't use teamwork, aren't equipped right, and didn't choose smart abilities and don't use them intelligently, you're likely see TPKs very frequently. Then again, BD&D saw constant TPKs, so maybe it's not a big deal.
 

I respectfully disagree on certain points too.


No Sales Text: How do you "sell" Role Playing to new players? Each person makes a different experience of it. D&D is trying to do this with visuals, its brand name and the promise of adventure. The World needs Heroes is vague but intriguing and anyone who could become a D&D player is likely to pick up the book and flip through it. Doing this will give the reader an idea of what D&D is.

The new edition does do something very well, it is viral and easy to pick up once you are playing with a group. My wife was always frustrated with 3.5 character creation and the PHB. She had no problem making characters and using this PHB. My best friend started playing D&D and roleplaying with this edition and he picked up all the rules and got the basics down for DMing by watching me (which I've been playing/ DMing for 25 years+) and after 20 hours of D&D4e he planned an adventure and ran a evening's session with very few hitches and did a great job. I've never seen previous versions of D&D do that. 4e got something right to make the game more viral.


The Great Wall: I agree with some of these points. I think there are some places where rules could have been indexed or laid out a bit better. The [W] was an issue for us at first.

No Newb Class: I would argue that all of the classes (except the warlock, warlord and wizard) can be played by new players. D&D 4e characters are easier to throw together but have lots of tactical choices. Basically pick your 2 at will, 1 encounter, 1 daily and class skills and go. This is less complicated than learn all of your different class special rules, pick the one you like, choose feats for the class (like fighter) or spells (like cleric, druid, sorcerer and wizard) and spend your skill points (which is very frustrating to a new player to get right).

If the classes are still complicated you can use the two pre built ones in each section, and then if still, use Keep on the Shadowfell (which is the true entry product, though it should be clearly marked as such and isn't).

Not Enough Examples: Agree. Character creation examples would be very strong. We had some trouble with defenses, armor, and figuring out the attack and damage workspace's intentions. One of my players had issues with the initiative area because the DEX didn't say DEX mod.

Poor Reference Tools: They are ok, not great, but ok. I expected a bit more too, but so far I can use the index and TOC that is there to find most of what I need, and powers are listed by level in the class chapter any ways. I'd be curious how much trouble a true new player has, my wife had no trouble finding anything.

Core Experience Is Hardcore: Yes, it is hardcore and it should be. Ironically, we have one camp on here saying it is not hardcore enough (which it is guys, promise) and here is the very respectable Chris Pramas saying it is too hardcore. I think its hardcore level is very spot on, with a tad leaning to too much like Chris says. The powers, multiclassing options and combat section are going to overwhelm new players but veterans are going to love them. I think if the PHB didn't have this, alot of hardcore players wouldn't be crossing over to 4e.

A basic set (releasing in Sep-Nov I think) is going to use visuals, come with minatures and tiles/ maps, and give a simplified 4e experience that leads you to the PHB. I think this is going to work very well as the quick start rules in KOTS did a great job preping us for the PHB, we just flowed into using it.

WOTC knew they needed a strong word of mouth, community supported game that new players could be pulled into. Hence the lack of a true starter product right now, WOTC is getting all of us ready to demo 4e to the new players, heck the DMG even teachs DMs how to do this.

Give 4e a few months to get the rest of its pieces into play. I think before the end of the year most of the elements are going to be working nicely. Knock on wood for the DDI :P
 
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I also think Chris has some good points. However, I'll stick to my belief that, by and large, gamers are gamers by nature, not because they worked up to it. (I think I'm in line with Ruin Explorer's first point there). I really don't think that being to complicated will stop the next generation of gamers from getting in to 4E. Competition from other activities is another story, but people who take to this kind of activity are bright and tend to be a bit obsessive :) . They will dig in and devour 4e just like they would any other edition.

But for the attracting new gamer part, to spin off of Teflon Billy's point, I really don't think there is any level of dumbing down that would draw a significant number of people not already inclined to gaming to start sitting around a table playing pretend. I'm not saying there are none, but I really don't believe the target audience exists in large enough numbers to really matter.

So I think Chris is exactly right, but it may not matter as much as it sounds. The attempt to grow the gamer base will just have one more reason on the list of why it didn't happen.
 

While I'm loving 4E so far, I can definitely see where Pramas is coming from. Fortunately, I think it's more a flaw in presentation than a flaw with the system and I believe a good DM can do a fair job of easing newbies in. They need someone there to tell them what [w] means so that they don't have to spend 10 minutes trying to find out for themselves and stuff like that...but once they know the terms and how to navigate the book, it becomes a lot less daunting for the inexperienced.

Of course, I've yet to have anyone truly new to RPGs try to make a character yet...just a couple of very inexperienced players, which is a little different than the totally uninitiated.
 


Heh...let's make a WoW comparison.

A new player has been hearing about WoW forever and decides to try it out and picks up and installs WoW.

Would you rate WoW (or any other MMO equivalent) harder for a newbie to grok than the 4E PHB?

I've played both so I'm no longer a newbie and even when I started WoW, coming from D&D gave me a firm basis of understanding so I wasn't gobsmacked by WoW.

That said, looking at the WoW entry game, I actually consider it harder for a newbie than the 4E PHB.
 

“No Sales Text” Really? Maybe I am a minority but I don’t think I have read any sales text in a decade or more. If it is a leisure book (fiction/non-fiction) I buy it because a friend of mine said it was good and if it is anything else I am getting it because of an online review. I honestly thought ‘Sales Text’ was there to miss guild you into buying a bad book… it would never occur to me that would be useful to someone hehe.

“The Great Wall” Yea. There were lots of ways they could have done it maybe should have made each class a chapter. But I don’t think putting all the abilities in one area would be much better.
“No Newb Class” Nice. How can someone actually complain that all the class are interesting to play? LOL

“Not Enough Examples” Yeppers. Need a lot more pictures and examples. Needed 2 full write ups for each class for instance.

“Poor Reference Tools” Humm. I have not had any trouble at all finding something… once I knew what I was looking for, which is another issue and that is what really kills the n00b experience. And why in the world would you need a alphabetical list of all the powers in one place? A fighter could give a rats arse what a wizards powers are. I love not having to wade through all the other classes junk to see what is important to me. And I think that makes it easier for a n00b as well. Everything you need for you class is in one place.

“Core Experience is Hardcore” Yeppers. Is he saying 3.x was not hardcore? Because it is.

What this all comes down to is who among you just went into Waldon’s and picked up your 1e Players Handbook in late twentieth century and starting playing? That day? The Players Handbook is to get new people playing in a game that has experienced players. The Starter Set is designed to get people who have never played the game into the game… or so the “Sales Text” says… LOL

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/217120000

Should that be on the shelf right now? Probably. Is using the Starter Set good business? Don’t know. But that is what they are trying to do. The PHB and DMG are not going to create new players out of whole cloth. They are much more for teaching. At least that’s how I see them.
 

AllisterH said:
That said, looking at the WoW entry game, I actually consider it harder for a newbie than the 4E PHB.

Really? I'm not a big fan of WoW (quit playing after about a month due its repetitious play), but I found it extremely easy to create a character and start playing.
 

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