Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[Dannyalcatraz]

My experience upon reading the 4Ed books the first time through is remarkably similar to Pramas'. So have my subsequent reads.

I mean, I figured out [w] without cross-referencing, but it took me some time (and I've been playing 30+ years, so that probably helped)- at the very least, an asterisk or parenthetical "see pg X" would have alleviated this confusion in seconds. I mean, a book on algebra or calculus wouldn't have left an undefined term just hanging there for a couple of hundred pages.

The index is woefully inadequate for books of this size- compare it to the ones found in previous editions of the game. Some of the things I wanted to look up there were simply absent, leaving me to slog through the books until I stumbled upon them. This isn't just a problem because I'm new to the particular book, its a harbinger of ease of use down the road.

As a whole, I have issues with the arrangement of this book (issues of my like or dislike of the game aside)- I don't even feel like I'd want to help a bunch of noobs slog through it to run a game. A fellow long-time gamer said the editing made him seasick.

Gotta go with Harr here. If the 4E PHB has a "great wall" at the powers sections, the 3E PHB had the same wall at the spells chapter. I've never heard anyone suggest the need to read the 3E spell chapter cover-to-cover as part of learning to play 3E.

Its not so much that you read the sections through...its that your eyes bounce off of it until you find yourself looking at the next class...or chapter. It kind of jolts you out of your immersion into the ruleset. Setting them aside into a "Powers" chapter- with lists subdivided by class (as per 1Ed/2Ed) or possibly simply alphabetically arranged (as per 3.X)- would probably have flowed much better. If nothing else, it would be more along the lines of what you'd see in most RPGs.

DoD (as Drakar och Demoner is abbreviated in Sweden) has a different paradigm (skills, spell points, etc.) and ruled the Swedish market, and blocked D&D from enter the mainstream until 3rd edition, which shows that the game design paradigm was less important than first mover advantage in the local market.

Its a maxim of marketing that the status of being first mover is the best indicator of success in a given market. Of course, when one of the later movers is the dominant force in the industry as a whole, the equation becomes more a matter of time than anything else.

(Still, though, McDonalds of South Africa held off the McDonalds of the "Golden Arches" for many many years...)

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Gotta go with Harr here. If the 4E PHB has a "great wall" at the powers sections, the 3E PHB had the same wall at the spells chapter. I've never heard anyone suggest the need to read the 3E spell chapter cover-to-cover as part of learning to play 3E.

Except you can't play any 4e class without looking in the power section. You can play 3e classes without needing to looking in the spells (fighter, rogue, barbarian, low level paladin, low-level ranger).

 

[hong]

Except you can't play any 4e class without looking in the power section.

Which you do by looking at ONE power section, not all of them in one go. And said power section is tiny compared to the spell list in the 3E PHB.

 

[Pbartender]

Except you can't play any 4e class without looking in the power section. You can play 3e classes without needing to looking in the spells (fighter, rogue, barbarian, low level paladin, low-level ranger).

But then again, even in 3E, when you built a spellcaster, you usually didn't read all the spells for that class... You'd skim the spell lists with their very brief descriptions (and even then, you'd only really be looking at the spell levels that your character can cast), and then read up on the ones that looked interesting.

Most players, even the rookies, would do much the same in 4E (or at least, my players did)... After deciding "I want to play a Fighter", would do a quick skim through the Fighter's power section as a whole to get a good idea of what's in store for higher levels, and then look very closely at the Level 1 powers, since those are the ones they'll be choosing from.

 

[hong]

But then again, even in 3E, when you built a spellcaster, you usually didn't read all the spells for that class... You'd skim the spell lists with their very brief descriptions (and even then, you'd only really be looking at the spell levels that your character can cast), and then read up on the ones that looked interesting.

Most players, even the rookies, would do much the same in 4E (or at least, my players did)... After deciding "I want to play a Fighter", would do a quick skim through the Fighter's power section as a whole to get a good idea of what's in store for higher levels, and then look very closely at the Level 1 powers, since those are the ones they'll be choosing from.

Ditto. This idea of "read all powers for all classes" before starting to play is rather strange. New guy comes to the session, he wants to play Legolas. All the ranger powers are laid out neatly for him in one contiguous section. Doesn't get easier.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

In addition, if you don't want to ponder which powers to take, every class has two builds already listed out. They even choose appropriate feats and skills for those builds if you don't want to make those decisions yourself.

Obviously that doesn't help as much if you're starting above 1st level, but I think it's reasonable to expect new players to start there.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Which you do by looking at ONE power section, not all of them in one go. And said power section is tiny compared to the spell list in the 3E PHB.

If said new guy was jumping in to the game as part of a group, especially a group with veteran gamers, of course.

But if the new guy was getting in as part of a group of other new guys, then there is a good chance there will be a whole group of new gamers trying to read as much of everything as possible while they try to grasp it all because they wouldn't have the benevolent guidance of a veteran telling them what to ignore so they could get he game running. You can surely bet that in a group of all new gamers the one chosen to DM is going to want to/need to read a ton . . . not a narrow single class.

If someone who knew the facts said that it is the case that all new-to-D&D gamers only come to D&D through an established group I'd believe them, then this issue of a "barrier of entry by complexity of presentation" would be a near non-issue. but we don't know exactly how many new gamers come to D&D through an established group of veterans.

In any case, I'm just saying that the presentation could have been far better than was executed.

 

[SSquirrel]

I think Pramas has not much of an idea what kind of optimisation, planning, and reading forms the average online gaming experience. There's all this "oh, poor new gamer kid getting critically hit by wall of text" lamentation, while that "poor gamer kid" is probably discussing the merits of various talent trees and combat tactics on his WoW guild forum in between reading up on the latest raid blue print.

Completely agreed. This is what I'm picturing a completely new gamer (mid-teens) who has already been playing some MMOs (WoW, CoH, Toontown, Pirates of the Carribean, whatever) would be having for an internal monologue looking at the books.

"Hmm...Dungeon Master's Guide...Player's Handbook...Monster Manual. Bill is gonna be the DM so that's $35 I get to keep. His mom is giving him the money for the Monster Manual for his birthday, so I get to just buy myself a Player's Handbook. SCORE!"

New gamer gets to pg 14 in the PHB.

"Ok so now I know the history behind the game and the basics of what is going to be happening...to make a character I read this list and look at chapters. hmm read the basics about each race and class. ooh, class recommendations for each race. Quick notice of what each of my possible skills do and pick them. Pick the recommended feat...heck, just go w/all these powers too for my first guy. This is pretty easy! Ooh, I like that sword and that armor looks nice. Can I kill stuff yet?"

 

[SweeneyTodd]

If anything, someone new to D&D who's played any MMO may very well show up with an idea of the group role they want to fill, since that's a familiar concept. The tradition of "one defender, one leader, then DPS/crowd control" would guide them pretty quickly to picking a class. Since you see you can "respec" at later levels, it seems reasonable to pick the default powers. So coming in from that perspective, you can definately hit the ground running.

 

[hong]

But if the new guy was getting in as part of a group of other new guys, then there is a good chance there will be a whole group of new gamers trying to read as much of everything as possible while they try to grasp it all because they wouldn't have the benevolent guidance of a veteran telling them what to ignore so they could get he game running.

Eh. People want crunchy bits. This is established. All the big videogames have plenty of crunchy bits to choose from.

You can surely bet that in a group of all new gamers the one chosen to DM is going to want to/need to read a ton . . . not a narrow single class.

He can read the DMG. He can let the players choose what they want. By no means is he going to read every power in the book.

He is likely to get blindsided every once in a while when people pull a stunt he wasn't aware of, but that's why the DMG has all that advice about "saying yes".