PrC’s, one at a time or for dipping?

[Unkabear]

PrC’s, one at a time or for dipping?

Just as the title says. I am wondering about everyone elses thoughts on the matter. Would keeping players to one PrC until it is completed before they could take another slow down on the munchkinism? Or would it make play less fun? Most of the ‘How pimp is my munchkin’ threads I am seeing out there require a character to dip into PrC’s to get the desired effect before they move on. I am not stopping people from taking as many core classes as they want. Though if they play the ‘core’ classes presented in splat books then they could still find ways to power up their character. But it is harder.

I believe that the dip into PrC’s to gain power is that PrC’s are designed to specialize players. When a character is allowed to specialize into several things you can take what is special from one of the other and add them into the all powerful munch. Am I wrong?

Are PrC’s designed to be dipped into to create a marvelous blend, or were they designed to be a one stop shop till you finish 5 or 10 levels later? Do you allow for your players to dip or not? Do you think PrC’s are the Devils tool to corrupt players into destroying the game and the universe and should be just outright banned? I would appreciate everyones thoughts.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Honestly, I think it is far easier to create a game where the characters don't need to be optimized to have fun than to enforce rules that prevent having fun. YMMV, of course.

Many of the people that post in the rules forum are optimizers by default. They are interested in the best damage build, or the best AC build, or whatever. And that's cool. I read through the forum because once and a while I like the academic challenge of character optimization.

However, I never put an optimized character into play. I don't enjoy playing a character that spent their whole life doing X really well and most other things sub-par. Its okay for some, but not for me.

In practice, I found that teaching players to focus on the RP and not combat is the best advice for minimizing optimization (or level-dipping). I don't mind a player saying that they want a level of barbarian because they think the rage ability fits the way they play their character. I do mind a player taking one level of barbarian for some optimization purpose.

That's where I'd hang my hat. Are your players dipping for RP purposes or optimization purposes. If RP purposes, then why complain? If for optimization purposes, then change your game so optimization is not important to enjoy the experiance.

EDIT: To actually answer your questions, so long as a player has solid RP interests behind a choice for a level ... I let them do what they want with PrCs.

 

[hong]

I don't think I've ever seen a PC with more than one prestige class. And this is with a group that includes at least 2 hardcore powergamers. The "cherrypick abilities from PrCs" thing doesn't happen in practice.

Now what I HAVE seen is people taking 2 levels of fighter for extra feats, or 4 levels for Weapon Spec, or 4 levels of rogue for uncanny dodge and evasion, or 2 levels of shadowdancer for the same. There are plentiful opportunities for cherrypicking without having to use multiple PrCs, especially if you're not a focused caster. YMMV on whether you consider this to be a problem.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

IMC, the epic level handbook is in play. For the 10 level PrC, there is no such thing as a limit. There is a fine line between "powergaming" and "munchkinism". As long as the DM obeys the same rules as the players in building his/her PC's you will be just fine.

When it comes to PrC, I find that certain classes are more "breakable" than others. Radiant Servant of Pelor is ugly if you don't read the rules on it exactly right. Serious attemps at "munchkinism" usually involve multiple PrC because publishers of the individual PrC were unconcerned with PrC class ability interaction.

Personally, I have found some items that others would automatically consider "broken" at first glance far from it. Mystic Theurge gets a lot of heat it doesn't deserve largely because people use it to "break" OTHER PrC. I have found that if you don't allow the class bonus feats at all, you can run the thing to epic proportion and it's just fine.

 

[Mistwell]

I personally think no more than one, maybe two when really appropriate.

Some PRC are lower on the flavor scale than others. Exotic Weapon Master, for example. Or Mystic Theurge.

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

yeah - when you are running a MT - why would you want to do any other PrC? It's all about the spells baby

 

[Dracandross]

It's better not to enforce it strictly. And why would PrC be different to any non-core base class. Theres also lots of ways to pick level or two among them. Easiest is fighter, why would any sane player play pure fighter? For skillpoint view theres ranger dip and for rage barbarian and for saves pally all this for ½-1 feats each+extra saves too.

If player wants to get few PrCs that match well the concept and won't break your game compared to other players let them. I had elemental savant once and I planned to leave it at lvl 9 (3e version) because last level didn't offer +spells (lvl 4 for 3.5e then of course). For wiz spells are everything, it was just for style. And I had it planned that I'd go for loremaster. It suited well my chars style and was not powergaming to its fullest at least. Enforcing rule would lead to fewer options as there is lots of PrCs that really are not worth it for full levels. Or styles that won't be too good even with few PrCs like wiz/spellsword 1/EK isn't.

Also if you state it is strict theres no way to leave PrC because of roleplay effects.

-Dracandross

 

[humble minion]

Most prestige classes don't particularly reward dipping, in my experience (the better-designed ones at least). First few levels you generally get a small flavour ability or two, and a brutally nerfed version of the class's signature ability. The real stuff doesn't come along until levels 5-10.

Besides, having to tailor your character to meet the prereqs of two or more PrCs is a big straightjacket, particularly when lots of PrCs require non-optimal feats (endurance, dodge, etc)

Though having said all that, I did do a 1-level dip into Blade Dancer for the movement and Tumble bonuses on my last character. But I'd already maxed out my Shadowdancer levels, and I just needed to take one more level of SOMETHING before I got to 20th and could go Epic...

 

[Wish]

I don't see a lot of benefit to limiting it that way.

I've played characters with no prestige classes, and I've played characters with several. What makes that decision is whether or not it fits with how I want the character to develop. Such a rule also hurts the development of a jack-of-all-trades character, or one designed to function independently.

 

[Nifft]

Some "Prestige" classes are only useful for dipping: for example, the Exotic Weapon Master. Others are not.

So long as the PrCs are well-designed (making you pay up front), I don't see any problem allowing PCs to dip in whatever they want. Spellcasting PrCs are notably not balanced up front, though.

- - -

I'd really like to see a more d20 Modern style system where dipping in various classes is encouraged, so that people see classes as mere tools for building the abilities which support their character concept, rather than as fixed archtypes which demand a specific concept and play-style.

Cheers, -- N