PrC Balance HR

[Jack Simth]

Currently, there are a lot of spellcasting PrC's where, for both the Wizard and the Sorcerer, the requirements are primarily things a well-designed character might reasonably take anyway, that offer full casting progression, and nifties, resulting in a Caster 5/PrC 10 character being strictly better (except for some usually minor things, such as familiar advancement) than a Caster 15. If your DM were to implement the following....

Give:
A bonus feat every 5th level of a PrC (so 5th and 10th for a 10 level PrC, or just 5th for a 5 level PrC)

Take:
Pre-Epic, each level of a full caster level progression PrC grants +1 Spellcasting level forever burns one spell slot from the currently highest available normal (not domain, stat bonus, specialty, et cetera slots) spell slot after applying the +1 caster level - so the Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 1 has 2 base 3rd level spell slots, one of which is gone forever (net 1 before bonuses); while the Sorcerer 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 1 has 3 base 3rd level spell slots, one of which is gone forever (net 2 before bonuses). The Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 3 effectively has 0 4th level spell slots (that's 0, not -; bonus spell slots from high intelligence or specilization still apply) while the Sorcerer 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 3 has 2 4th level spell slots (only one lost due to just now gaining a spell slot); a Sorcerer 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Other full spellcasting PrC 5 (20th level) would have spells per day looking like....
6/6/6/4/4/4/4/4/4/3 (lost 2 3rd (6th and 7th character level), 2 4th (8th and 9th), 2 5th (10th and 11th), 2 6th (12th and 13th), 2 7th (14th and 15th), 2 8th (16th and 17th), and 3 9th (18th, 19th and 20th) level spell slots),
While the Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Other full spellcasting PrC 5 would look like....
4/4/4/3/2/2/2/2/2/0 (lost 1 3rd (6th character level), 2 4th (7th and 8th ), 2 5th (at 9th and 10th), 2 6th (at 11th and 12th), 2 7th (at 13th and 14th), 2 8th (at 15th and 16th), and 4 9th (at 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th) level spell slots)

Class abilities that cost spell slots (like the Archmage's) still do so.

Now, would such a thing balance a full caster progression PrC vs. a pure classed spellcaster?

 

[Nifft]

I'm having trouble understanding your rules.

Why not just take away one level of spellcasting at the start of every PrC? (Make sure the PrC's abilities are good enough to justify it, of course... they usually do!)

-- N

 

[Jack Simth]

I'm having trouble understanding your rules.

Why not just take away one level of spellcasting at the start of every PrC? (Make sure the PrC's abilities are good enough to justify it, of course... they usually do!)

-- N

Well, suppose you're a Wizard-6, looking into a PrC for 7th level.

You can take one. However, you've got an issue: you've only got one base 4th level spell slot... which will be consumed by the level of the PrC. If you're a specialist, you'll still have your specialty slot. If you've got an Int of 18+, you'll still have your bonus slot for having a high Intelligence score. But you'll have 0 base 4th level spells at that level.

Suppose you're a Wiz-6/PrC 1, looking to level up. You went ahead and suffered through a base 0 4th level spell slots all through 7th level. Now you're turning 8th. And you have a choice: Take a level of PrC, and burn another 4th level spell slot, or take a level of Wizard, and not burn a 4th level spell slot. If you take the level in the PrC, you'll have 0 base 4th level spell slots.... you'll still have your specialty slot, and you'll still have your spell slot for having an Int of 18+.... but compared to the Wiz-8, you'll be short two 4th level spell slots.

Suppose now you're a Wiz-6/PrC 2, looking to level up. You went ahead and suffered through a base 0 4th level spell slots all through 8th level. Now you're turning 9th. And you have a choice: Take a level of a PrC, and burn your shiny new 5th level spell slot, or take a level in the PrC, and you won't have any base 5th level spell slots.... but bonus spell slots from having an Int of 20+, or from specialization, will still apply (either way, you finally have a base 4th level spell slot to play with - a Wiz-9 has 3 4th level base spell slots, and you burned two - one on PrC level 1, one on PrC level 2).

And so on. Now, if you stick it out for five levels, you get a bonus feat (which is about where you'd get one if you'd taken 11 level of Wizard, instead of six levels of wizard and five levels of the PrC). But at 11th, you're short two spell slots each from spell levels 4th and 5th, and a spell slot short on your 6th level spell slots. You have no base 6th level spell slots as a Wiz-6, PrC-5; specialization or an Intelligence score of 22+ will still have their normal effects.... but while you might be able to swing an Analyze Deweomer as a Diviner-6/PrC-5 with an Int of 20, the the Diviner-11 with an Int of 20 who didn't PrC can swing an Analyze Deweomer and another 6th level spell. And the Diviner-11 can swing two more 5th level spells than you can. And two more 4th.

You're constantly trading spellcasting endurance (spell slots) for the bonuses of each level of the PrC. For a nonspecialist Wizard, eventually, all those PrC's are going to put him a one level of spells behind the Sorcerer. So the Wizard player has a constant choice: PrC power, or spellcasting power.

The Sorcerer also takes a hit (although less of one); a Sorcerer-6/PrC-5 is missing two 5th, two 4th, and one 3rd level spell slot. At no point was the Sorcerer denied his highest level spell (he starts a spell level with three spell slots - a level of PrC rather than Sorcerer drops it to 2). But the normal cost of PrC's still applies - Sorcerers tend to have to scrounge for feats and skills to make PrC requirements. At the cost of several spell slots per day, the Sorcerer picks up something he can't readily get - bonus feats. But the Sorcerer loses something the Sorcerer is known for - Endurance. Instead of being able to cast a Shadow Evocation four times at 11th, the Sorcerer-6/PrC-5 can only cast it twice.

Basically, it makes it so that another level of PrC is not strictly better than another level of your base spellcasting class, regardless of level.

Think about it - if Wiz-5/PrC-10 is strictly better than a Wiz-15, what's the point of a Wiz-15? If a Sor-5/PrC-10 is strictly better than a Sor-15, what's the point of a Sor-15? How is the PrC balanced if it's strictly better than the class levels it's replacing?


As to why spell slots, rather than caster level....
Sorcerers have a hard enough time with PrC's as it is. They're already a level behind in spell advancement. The same rule applied across the board (while it still hurts Sorcerers who take PrC's) doesn't put them even more painfully behind.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'd say this is pretty heavily campaign subjective.

If it's a low-encounter campaign, where you're only being hit with one or two tough encounters per rest cycle, it's almost a no-brainer. You can still pump out your highest level stuff, pick up a wand or a scroll or a staff for the possibility of running out of spells, and get free feats to boot!

If it's a high-encounter campaign where you'll face 10 different critters before nightfall, it's similarly not really in consideration -- no way you'd give up longevity for a relatively minor bang.

If you're a sorcerer, it's more skewed toward taking the PrC's, since you'll have more spell slots to burn, anyway. It almost turns you into a wizard -- you get a feat every five levels and don't cast as many spells.

I'd second Nifft's relatively simple suggestion of just removing one "+1 level of spellcasting class" at first or second level, which has a slightly more potent effect (in that you won't always have the spells you may need to face a critter of your CR), but it a lot more universal in it's penalty.

 

[airwalkrr]

I like the mechanic, but I don't think the bonus feats are necessary. How about this instead? You lose one spell slot of the highest level you can cast for the first two levels in a prestige class that grants spellcasting, you lose one spell slot of the second highest level you can cast for the second two levels in a prestige class that grants spellcasting, and so on and so forth.

I think this could safely apply to almost all prestige classes while still not being too heavy-handed, considering the major boost in power prestige classes allow. Nifft's idea isn't a bad one, although I think most spellcasting prestige classes should only grant spellcasting every other level, especially those with lots of cool benefits, like fatespinner or church inquisitor.

 

[Li Shenron]

It would definitely depend on the PrCl in question.

 

[FireLance]

I think the problem with the system outlined above is that the order in which you gain PrC levels becomes important. A character loses less if he gains PrC levels early (and loses lower-level spell slots) than if he gains PrC levels late (and loses higher-level spell slots).

If you want to trade off spell slots for PrC abilities, perhaps it will be simpler to replace one or more of the +1 spellcaster levels with +1 spell power, which increases caster level without increasing spell slots.