PrC=No more Domain Spells/Features?

[Camarath]

Here's where the nitpicking starts:

The Good and Healing domains are class features of Jozan's cleric levels, and the Inquistion domain of his prestige class. Therefore, if he truly prepares divine spells "as if he had risen to 9th level as a cleric", then Jozan would only get Good and Healing spells as options for his 1st,2nd,3rd,4th, and 5th level domain slots, and Inquisition domain spells as an option for his 1st level domain slot.

A character with cleric based casting may cast a spell form any domain he possess in any of his domain slots. This is because the ability to cast domain spells is granted under the "Spells" ability which is the ability increased by the prestige class.

Why is this the case? Because the Inquisition domain is not part of the class features of cleric. Jozan gains increased spells per day as a cleric, using his cleric class features. The Church Inquisitor level indeed let him "gain the granted power associated with the domain and choose the spells in that domain as his daily domain spells." However, since Jozan only has 1 level in ChInq, he can only prepare 1st level domain spells, per his distinct class ability of ChInq.

His daily domain spells are dictated by his cleric casting ability which is based one his cleric level + any prestige class levels that add to his catsing ability. The prestige class does not grant an additional separate casting ability it increase the charaters existing one.

The key here is to keep spells per day distinct from what can go into those spell slots. While Jozan's domain spell slots are class features of his cleric level, he can only put certain spells into them, as determined by his class level and his domains.

This is not true spells per day and know/prepareable spells per day are governed by the same ability (his cleric casting ability). You are making a disinction where there is not one. Domain spells are a feature of a clerics casting ability not a separate class ability.

 

[Storminator]

I wondered about some Domain powers, partcularly Smite. It says you add your cleric level to damage. What about my level of Divine Disciple? Do I add that too?

I think the spells available are pretty clear, you just add them in the pot. Here's my reasoning. Look at the spell casting chart, 9th level cleric, page 31 PHB (3.5)

Spells per day
6 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1

All those +1s are for the domain spells, which can be prepared from "one of the cleric's two domains" PHB 32. On page 77 DotF, it says "She may chose the spells in the Exorcism domain for her domain spells on a given day." So the new domain spells can clearly cast in the new slots.

PS

 

[Caliban]

I wondered about some Domain powers, partcularly Smite. It says you add your cleric level to damage. What about my level of Divine Disciple? Do I add that too?

Nope. A Divine Disciple level is not a cleric level.


Some domain abilities depend on character level, in which case all your levels (cleric or otherwise) are used to calculate the effect/bonus.

Other domain abilities depend on cleric level, in which case only your cleric levels are used to calculate the bonus effect.

It should state in the ability which (character level or cleric level) is used. If doesn't state it specifically, then it's cleric level.

 

[strongbow]

3: How does Jozan the Shaman rebuke/command animals with no cleric levels?
A: That is an example, the word 'as' should be the identifier for that sentence. Since most people are not familiar with a shaman, making a reference to a cleric wether good or evil gives those reading the text an idea as to what really happens.

What are you trying to say here? I'm talking about the Shaman class from Oriental adventures. The shaman has two domains, can cast healing spells spontaneously, is resticted against castings spells against his alignment, etc. just like a cleric. One of the domains, the Nature Domain, says that he can Rebuke/Command animals and plant creatures like a cleric. How do you determine at what level a shaman can rebuke? I'm not trying to be misleading; I'm asking a legitimate question here.

The easy answer is to say that you should use his shaman level, but here is the catch. Shamans have delayed turning capabilities, like paladins (Two levels lower). It seems silly to include domains referencing classes that ostensibly don't exist in Oriental Adventures. If the book said like a shaman it would be clear how things work, but it doesn't.

Call it designer/editing lazyness or whatever, but the rules lawyers of my group want an official answer. All of the opinions listed are welcome by the way. Y'all make some good points. I wish some of my gaming friends would step up and post all their questions, :sigh: Keep the discussion rolling.

 

[Olive]

The easy answer is to say that you should use his shaman level, but here is the catch. Shamans have delayed turning capabilities, like paladins (Two levels lower). It seems silly to include domains referencing classes that ostensibly don't exist in Oriental Adventures. If the book said like a shaman it would be clear how things work, but it doesn't.

I think that 'as a cleric' is clear, but 'as a shaman' would be misleading. As a cleric means that it rebukes plant creatures as a cleric of his shaman level, distint from his shaman turning abilites.

So a 5th level shaman witht eh plant domain rebukes plants as a 5th level evil cleric would rebuke undead, but turns undead as per his shaman level. Make sense?

 

[Camarath]

Here is a rewording of the ability spelling out the implications and (IMO) proper interpretation of the ability.

The shaman rebukes or commands normal animals or plant creatures as evil cleric (of the charater's level) would rebuke or command the undead.

Whether it is the character's class level or shaman level is unclear to me. I would tend to go with the character's total level in the absence of a stated limitation.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The easy answer is to say that you should use his shaman level, but here is the catch. Shamans have delayed turning capabilities, like paladins (Two levels lower).

Yea, but there it explicitly states that he turns as a cleric of two levels lower would. This "as two levels lower" only applies to turning, of course, or it wouldn't be stated in the entry of turning undead.

If a paladin somehow gets a domain, and chooses one that grants some turning ability, he turns as a cleric of his level, not two levels lower, for it's a power the domain grants, not his class itself.

It seems silly to include domains referencing classes that ostensibly don't exist in Oriental Adventures. If the book said like a shaman it would be clear how things work, but it doesn't.

Clerics aren't used in OA, but they're still core rules, and you have to use the core rules to play OA, so that's no problem

Call it designer/editing lazyness or whatever, but the rules lawyers of my group want an official answer.

If you're the DM, just tell them that your word is reality, for it is. If someone else is the DM, explain him this, and appeal to his common sense. If he's one of the rules lawyers and bean counters you have associated with - RUN LIKE HELL.
Not all rules are clear as rainwater. That's something that you cannot possibly achieve and even trying will severily mess up things (go get a code of law and you know what I mean). The good thing is: RPGs are made for humans, not computers with a binary logic. If somethings unclear, you can rule it as you will, choosing the way it makes the most sense. And using only PrC levels for prestige domains doesn't make any sense at all for you wouldn't need the higher level spells (remember epic levels aren't core, and accessories don't use the rules of one another unless explicitly stated. And there's no "you need epic level handbook for this one" on the back of defenders of the faith).

If your friends won't see reason, tell them to come here. But inform us beforehand, so we have the acid and fire ready.

 

[strongbow]

KaeYoss, better bring a barrell, because they regenerate quickly. That's a good point about a paladin picking up a prestige domain, you would have to improvise to make some domains worthwhile. Either you have to go with:

1: Tough luck, you cheesy paladin. Since you don't have any cleric levels, some domains are going to just suck for you.
2: There, There. It's alright, you can turn equal to your character level as opposed to your non-existant cleric levels.

I've argued character level vs. tough luck before, but was never able to "win" the argument for character level. Any help beyond the example of a paladin?

The counterargument is that a cleric with the view of total character level, a cleric is penalized for multiclassing and everyone else is not. That doesn't sit very well on a visceral level of intuition, which is probably one of the reasons Olive posted the other viewpoint. Hmmm.

 

[Camarath]

I've argued character level vs. tough luck before, but was never able to "win" the argument for character level. Any help beyond the example of a paladin?B]

If no requisite class level is listed for a level based ability then the base ability, gained via a feat or class ability, will scale with reguard to the characters's total class levels rather than the level of the class that granted the ability. The defualt scale for level based abilities is the character's total class level. For an ability to scale based on a single (or set of) class(es) then the ability must list that restriction in it's description.

That is how I view the issue. Neither my players or other DMs I have played with have tried to argue this issue. What is the argument aginst this interpretation?

 

[strongbow]

The counterargument against total character level is that a cleric is penalized for multiclassing and everyone else is not. My paladin can turn/rebuke elementals at his character level, but a cleric who multiclasses does not advance their abilities.

If Jozan the cleric 10 takes a Contemplative level, and gets a prestige domain Air, then he turns/rebukes elementals as a 10 level cleric, not 11th. The Air domain granted power is based on his cleric level, and thus does not advance. He is penalized for multiclassing.

Alhandra the paladin 10 takes a Contemplative level, and gets a prestige domain Air. She turns/rebukes elementals as an 11th level cleric (by your argument), therefore she is NOT penalized for multiclassing (as far as domain powers are concerned).

This situation means that taking prestige classes that grant extra/domain powers, which make the most sense for clerics over all the other classes, penalizes the character class that is the most likely to take these prestige classes!

Think about that for a moment, if you will. Is this fair and good to a cleric who wants to take a prestige class? Why does a Wizard 19/Contemplative 1 have a domain power that is twice as effective as a Cleric 10/Contemplative 10? That is the counter-argument.