PrC=No more Domain Spells/Features?

[Camarath]

The counterargument against total character level is that a cleric is penalized for multiclassing and everyone else is not. My paladin can turn/rebuke elementals at his character level, but a cleric who multiclasses does not advance their abilities.

If Jozan the cleric 10 takes a Contemplative level, and gets a prestige domain Air, then he turns/rebukes elementals as a 10 level cleric, not 11th. The Air domain granted power is based on his cleric level, and thus does not advance. He is penalized for multiclassing.

Does the cleric's domain ability say that it is based of the characters cleric level? AFAIK it does not do so thus you should IMO use the clerics total character level.

Alhandra the paladin 10 takes a Contemplative level, and gets a prestige domain Air. She turns/rebukes elementals as an 11th level cleric (by your argument), therefore she is NOT penalized for multiclassing (as far as domain powers are concerned).

The paladin would turn (earth elementals) as level 11 cleric as would the cleric. My argument was not limited to non-clerics but included clerics as well.

Think about that for a moment, if you will. Is this fair and good to a cleric who wants to take a prestige class? Why does a Wizard 19/Contemplative 1 have a domain power that is twice as effective as a Cleric 10/Contemplative 10? That is the counter-argument.

In no case I can think of would a Wizard 19/Contemplative 1's domain powers be stronger than a Cleric 10/Contemplative 10's would be. In fact since wizard levels would not count as cleric levels for the purpose of abilities with that specific limitation many posible domains would be much weaker. Note that for domain abilities that expressly state they are based on a character's cleric level are based solely on the character's cleric level. For example a wizard who gained the Death domain would not be able to use the domain ability because it is based solely upon the character's cleric level which the character does not possess. If the prestige class states that it's levels count for the sake of domain abilities (or domains) then you would count them as cleric levels for that purpose, but not unless that is actualy stated.

This situation means that taking prestige classes that grant extra/domain powers, which make the most sense for clerics over all the other classes, penalizes the character class that is the most likely to take these prestige classes!

I sometimes house rule it so that prestige classes that add to a character's cleric casting ability also add to the character's effective cleric level for the purpose of domain abilities. I usually only do this if the domain fits the prestige class's focus.

 

[strongbow]

Does the cleric's domain ability say that it is based of the characters cleric level? AFAIK it does not do so thus you should IMO use the clerics total character level.

Yes, the elemental domains are based off cleric level.

Alhandra the paladin 10 takes a Contemplative level, and gets a prestige domain Air. She turns/rebukes elementals as an 11th level cleric (by your argument), therefore she is NOT penalized for multiclassing (as far as domain powers are concerned).

Therefore, you should see my point here now (you are free to disagree of course). Ok, I see, you thought the elemental domains were not based on cleric level. You are in the non-character level camp. I was thinking of several domains, including the death domain, since the majority of domains are based on cleric level.

Having to make a houserule to correct what I perceive as a perverse flaw in domain structure is a pain.

 

[Camarath]

Yes, the elemental domains are based off cleric level.

AIR DOMAIN
Granted Powers: Turn or destroy earth creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster air creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

It does not say that that this ability is based on your cleric level. Where are you deriving your assertion that it is based on cleric level from? Since the ability does not specify what it's level based component is based on I think that it should be based the character's total class level.

Therefore, you should see my point here now (you are free to disagree of course). Ok, I see, you thought the elemental domains were not based on cleric level. You are in the non-character level camp. I was thinking of several domains, including the death domain, since the majority of domains are based on cleric level.

I do think that if the ability states that it is based on cleric levels then it is based solely on cleric levels. The Water, Plant, Fire, Earth, and Air domain abilities are IMO not based on cleric level. The domains based on cleric level are Death, Destruction, Protection, Strength, Travel, Magic and Trickery (Knowledge and Animal both are partially dependant on cleric level). War, Sun, Luck, Law, Healing, Good, Evil, and Chaos all give the same regardless of character of cleric level. Only 9 out of 22 domains will suffer from multiclassing.

Having to make a houserule to correct what I perceive as a perverse flaw in domain structure is a pain.

This is one of the few draw backs to multiclassing with your cleric (other than turning). Just as the lack of familiar progression is just about the only draw back to multiclassing with the sorcerer. I do not think that this is such an egregious problem. I also don't really mind making house rules.

 

[The Little Raven]

It does not say that that this ability is based on your cleric level. Where are you deriving your assertion that it is based on cleric level from? Since the ability does not specify what it's level based component is based on I think that it should be based the character's total class level.

Under turning undead.

It says "cleric level" for every need for a level under the ability, so it is based on cleric level.

So, a cleric with the Fire domain turns water creatures just as well as he does undead.

A paladin that gets the Fire domain would turn water creatures just as well as he does undead (as a cleric of three levels lower).

Any character that does not have the ability to turn undead, but gains a turning ability from a PrC should use that PrC's class level to determine it. Thus, a Wizard10/Contemplative1 that picks up the Fire domain can turn/rebuke water creatures as a 1st-level cleric (and also would gain the spellcasting of a 1st-level cleric).

I think turning should be based on divine spellcasting caster level, but that might be a little overpowered.

 

[Camarath]

Under turning undead.

It says "cleric level" for every need for a level under the ability, so it is based on cleric level.

So, a cleric with the Fire domain turns water creatures just as well as he does undead.

A paladin that gets the Fire domain would turn water creatures just as well as he does undead (as a cleric of three levels lower).

The ability says "as a good cleric turns undead" and "as an evil cleric rebukes undead". If the ability was based on your ability to turn undead then it would say you could turn the traget creatures as you turn or rebuke undead. There is no stated interaction between a character's ability to turn undead and their ability to turn other targets. So if the ability is not based on your ability to turn then it must function as it would with another cleric with the ability to turn (or rebuke) the traget creatures instead of undead. But as what level cleric do you gain the ability to turn (or rebuke) as? If it was based on your cleric level it would say as a cleric of your cleric level. Thus I think that you should turn (or rebuke) the target creatures as a cleric of your total character level.

Any character that does not have the ability to turn undead, but gains a turning ability from a PrC should use that PrC's class level to determine it. Thus, a Wizard10/Contemplative1 that picks up the Fire domain can turn/rebuke water creatures as a 1st-level cleric (and also would gain the spellcasting of a 1st-level cleric).

Contemplative levels do not give the ability to turn undead and are not cleric levels so why would you gain the ability to turn unless the ability was based on character level?

 

[strongbow]

I see your point Camarath.

If it was based on your cleric level it would say as a cleric of your cleric level.

.

It does indeed say "as a cleric turns undead" instead of "as a cleric of your cleric level" or "equal to your cleric level" or "per cleric level you possess" etc. There is a distinction that some domains don't explicitly state cleric level, so there is some ambiguity as to what level the power should function as.

Mourn, Camarath is correct about Contemplative. If you are going to be strict about enforcing actual cleric levels, then a Wizard/Contemplative could use his turn/rebuke ability, but it would function as if he were level 0. Since the turning chart can go as far as +4 above your actual level of turning, the wizard/contemplative could do it, but would be very ineffective.

I don't think you can draw a line and say that our Wiz/Con would turn as a first level cleric, since he has no cleric level. He should either turn as a 0 level cleric, or as a cleric=to his character level.

I believe my point remains about the Shaman/Nature Domain. Since I believe it is not the designer's intent to have a Shaman with a useless domain power, then the Shaman should either turn equal to his Shaman level or his character level. I'm going to re-read the OA errata and then e-mail James Wyatt. I hate to bug game designers, but we have reached more or less an impasse.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'm just tired of this. I really don't care about the letter of the rule when the spirit of the rule is so clear. I won't read this thread further.

 

[WCrawford]

KaeYoss, better bring a barrell, because they regenerate quickly. That's a good point about a paladin picking up a prestige domain, you would have to improvise to make some domains worthwhile. Either you have to go with:

1: Tough luck, you cheesy paladin. Since you don't have any cleric levels, some domains are going to just suck for you.
2: There, There. It's alright, you can turn equal to your character level as opposed to your non-existant cleric levels.

I've argued character level vs. tough luck before, but was never able to "win" the argument for character level. Any help beyond the example of a paladin?

The counterargument is that a cleric with the view of total character level, a cleric is penalized for multiclassing and everyone else is not. That doesn't sit very well on a visceral level of intuition, which is probably one of the reasons Olive posted the other viewpoint. Hmmm.

The way I generally do this is to allow the Domain based turning to be used exactly as if the character in question was turning undead.

Example: A Paladin who gain the Air domain would turn Earth creatures at the same level he would turn undead and rebuke Air creature the same.

Any PrC that gives turning ability would have the levels stack. Now the way I do it may not be 'correct' but it sure seems to be the fair thing to do.

 

[strongbow]

Thanks for your time KaeYoss. I stated up all their arguments; I hope you don't think that I was trying to be stubborn. I personally like character level instead of cleric level, it makes for less headaches. Thanks for contributing.

 

[Camarath]

I'm just tired of this. I really don't care about the letter of the rule when the spirit of the rule is so clear. I won't read this thread further.

I am sorry if this thread became tiring for you. I did not intend for to do so. You know that you can always house rule anything that you want. I have fun arguing about the strict (or proper) interpritation of the rules. I feel you never really know the rules untill you push them to the point at which they fall apart. But I don't think you should ever let the rules get in the way of your fun. They are just a medium for interaction. If something gets in the way just change it. It is the people that makes the game not the rules.