D&D 4E Pre PHB2: Are we happy with WotC's maintenance of 4ED

Also, this isn't strictly about Sure Strike / Careful Attack. It's about what is WotC's maintenance plan. While I *agree* they have put out more optimal powers for the martial classes, my whole argument is that more powers that are optimal is not an appropriate maintenance plan.

So how about I re-word the question?

If you think Careful Strike and Sure Strike are sub-optimal choices, HOW should we ASK WotC to maintain their product?

I propose that existing powers / class features that are sub-optimal in the EXISTING Player's Handbook 1 should be heavily errata'd such to bring the existing product as it stands to it's maximum potential.
 

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I think.....I think that further errata that *improves* CS/SS is very unlikely.

If you look at the pattern of errata, they generally post errata if something is either:
  • Confusing/poorly written, or
  • Too powerful by far.
I can't think of an errata that was posted because something was too weak.
 

I think.....I think that further errata that *improves* CS/SS is very unlikely.

If you look at the pattern of errata, they generally post errata if something is either:
  • Confusing/poorly written, or
  • Too powerful by far.
I can't think of an errata that was posted because something was too weak.

This, IMO, is a problem and I think we should lean on WotC to provide the best product possible.
 

Spiral of Doom Countdown

Personally, I am of the opinion that we are seeing signs of the coming apocalypse far sooner than anticipated. Let me explain.

The very first time I read the 4E Player's Handbook, I predicted that Hasbro would eventually sell us "The Book of +2's," and this would be the harbinger of 4.5, just as 3.5's Monster Manual V, Complete Arcane II, and Complete Adventurer II were signs of the coming of 4E.

It looks to me like the Player's Handbook II is The Book of +2's, and it's coming out less than year after the PHB.

At some point, the 4E PHB (and DMG), as currently printed, will become unplayable, and something will be printed that will take its place. It could be called the Revised Player's Handbook, D&D4.5, even D&D5, whatever you call it, it is coming, and much sooner than I had thought possible.

As great as many of the fundamental design decisions behind 4E are, the implementation is already showing signs of distress, after only ten months.

I see the situation as analogous to the original version of Magic The Gathering. A fantastic idea, a really great game, but so, so horribly broken. In those first few years, the rules went through numerous revisions while mostly retaining backwards compatibility, but eventually the combination of power creep and the combinatoric explosion forced Wizards to effectively "age" old material out of the system, so that new material could be produced and sold, while stabilizing the effects of power creep and combinatoric excess.

I see the same thing happening to 4E. Because of human failing, it is impossible to stop power creep as a marketing tool. Hasbro wants to sell new books, so they will be publishing new classes, paragon paths, powers, feats, races, abilities, and magic items. While in theory, Errata could be employed to tame individual powers, as the number of powers rises linearly with time (with new books being published nearly every month), the number of power combinations rises almost exponentially, and so also the amount of errata necessary tame those combinations.

What is the solution?

Hasbro has already found the solution and implemented it successfully with Magic, in particular the Type II Deck Construction Rules. Under those rules, only those cards published during the last two years are legal for tournament (and hence public) play. Whenever a new block is published, the oldest legal block "ages" out of play.


This accomplishes several important things:
  1. It allows Hasbro to continually publish new material.
  2. It accounts for power creep, intentional or not.
  3. It keeps the number of available powers nearly constant over time.
  4. It keeps the number of available power combinations nearly constant over time.
  5. It keeps the amount of applicable Errata nearly constant over time.
  6. It maintains backwards compatability with the maximum amount of material.
The same needs and pressures apply to 4E, and a similar solution would offer comparable advantages. Before you burst a blood vessel and rage against what an awful idea it is consider the following. The current PHB will someday be unplayable as printed, and a replacement will be printed.


Under the classic version model, this would be a new edition, 4.5 or 5 or whatever, and you will be forced to choose either to remain with the old edition and keep using your older books, or jump to the new edition, and have all your old books obsolete, or at least not applicable to the new edition.

Under the Magic Type II model, the new PHB would be largely backward compatable, and most of your books would remain playable. Only the oldest, and generally most problematic material would become obselete. The books you had purchased in the last two or three years would all remain playable.

What would you really rather have happen when the inevitable transition to what is essentially a newer version happens? Have all your old books become unplayable with the new version, or have some of your old books become unplayable?

There are other costs to the classic version model. Anyone remember the last year of 3.5 material? They were uniformly awful. Since Wizards' best people were working on 4E, the 3.5 material was churned out by second stringers, some of whom, like Richard Berlew, should never have been allowed to write "official" material. Game stores suffered, players suffered, and Hasbro suffered.

In contrast, incremental revision with aging means that the publisher can always be putting out their best effort, sellers will experience more steady sales instead of spikes and drops, and the players can buy material knowing that it will serve them for years, regardless of where the product is in the version cycle.

It works fabulously well for Magic, and if successfully applied to 4E, D&D would become "evergreen," just as Magic is. If done properly, there might never be another "edition" of D&D, just a constant refinement over time.

I know the rage you must be feeling now. Never!

But be realistic. 4E is already showing signs of strain, and it will break. Since this is inevitable, the really adult question is, how should it be handled?

Smeelbo
 
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Eh, PHB2 is no different from putting extra classes in splatbooks like they used to do... the logic is inherently flawed around that concept.

Now, are there things they should correct? Yep, totally. Same as in 3e, except it's easier to tell. In 3e we had people whose AC were _20_ apart by this stage, and we're grousing over _4_ now. Hasted Harm + CLW packages in 3e, "Dagnabbit rangers do 20% more DPR than they should due to twin strike bonus handling", etc.
 

But be realistic. 4E is already showing signs of strain, and it will break. Since this is inevitable, the really adult question is, how should it be handled?

Smeelbo
Excellent post, Smeelbo. Thanks.

...but, how do you age out a book? I'm not clear on how I -as a customer- figure this out when I pick up a gaming book in the FLGS. How do I know if a book has aged out?

Put another way: Will they just keep printing the PH 1, but put a "age out" date on it, or will they publish PH 6 with the new fighter, rogue, wizard, etc?
 

I think they'll wait until it's clearly a catastrophe

I think that what will happen is that Hasbro will deny that there's any problem until the game is a complete mess and book sales plummet dramaticly. Then, when forced to act, they will take the opportunity to address some of the fundamental structural problems that cannot be corrected by errata, and call the result Revised 4th Edition.

At that point, they should have accepted the necessity of incremental revision and aging as opposed to classic versioning, and will introduce some appropriate language, similar to "blocks" in Magic. They might divide material along tier lines, for example, and one year, replace heroic, next year paragon, and the next year epic, and then start the cycle over again. Or something like that.

It's really to early for Hasbro be discussing this with the player base: too many players would feel betrayed so soon after introducing a new version. Hasbro will only act when forced to, i.e., when the body of official game material taken as a whole becomes nigh unplayable, and players are refusing to part with their money to buy new books.

However, they'd better be thinking about it now. Because the longer they let the mess fester without preparing for it, the worse the transition will be. On the other hand, if they are already planning for a Revised Player's Handbook/Dungeonmaster's Guide for 2011 say, they can lay the groundwork for incremental revisions now, and make the transition far more pleasant for everyone.

Tier-based products might be a good first step.

Smeelbo
 

What are your thoughts?
I'd be happier with WotC if they'd throw some bones to heavy-armour classes.

For the most part, the 4th edition classes are light-armour users--nearly every character concept I see nowadays, either on the discussion boards or in games, wears hide armour, with the occasional Wizard wearing leather.

This is all find and dandy for people who want to live out their dreams of being a lightly-clad ninja just like in the endless steaming pile of modern action and Asian martial arts movies.

But what about the good, old-fashioned Knight in Shining Armour concept?

I don't want to be a ninja. I don't want to be encouraged to wear leather, or--God forbid--Hide armour. I want to look like the pop-culture concept of the classic Knight in Armour, and I want that concept to be terrifically effective. But it seems like all the new feats and class features are built expressly around wearing light armour. How many of the classes in the PHB II have some sort of extra bonus when they wear light armour? And there's only one class--one!--that gets to start out with plate armour proficiency. And the builds I am beginning to see for the Avenger class on other boards are filled with "Ha, ha! The Avenger has a better AC than any other class! Suck it, plate armour wearers!"

I hope the future holds something awesome for those (apparently few!) of us who like heavily-armoured classes...
 


I hope the future holds something awesome for those (apparently few!) of us who like heavily-armoured classes...

I agree 100% with this.

Heavily armored classes have a major advantage with the changes to heavy armor in Adventurer's Vault and PHB II. At mid-Paragon and above.

Unfortunately, many (if not the vast majority) of games start in the Heroic levels.

Players are strongly incentivized to use lighter armor. I decided to design a heavily armored weapon and shield Cleric and it takes a lot of feats to do so. Players are not inclined to do this.
 

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