Another great non-answer that says nothing about the feat. Way to be totally constructive.
/not joke
D&D 5E Precise Strike [Feat]
- Thread starter Yunru
- Start date
Another great non-answer that says nothing about the feat. Way to be totally constructive.
/not joke
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Can you share your math? I'm especially interested in how they scale compared to each other.
Also, how does it compare to a barbarian with GWM and Precise Strike, or a Fighter with Polearm Master and Precise Strike. I'm concerned that this would create a new tier where you need Precise Strike and another combat feat to be top tier else you do sub-par damage.
jgsugden
Legend
If you read my full response, I did suggest a balanced alternative in the last line of my response. If you look at prior editions, expanding the 'critical range' was one of the most abused elements in the game.
I suggested not going down this road because there are some things best left untouched. For example, if I asked for people to provide suggestions for how we could have a feat that allowed my PC to kill any monster with a glance with no attack roll or save required, there wouldn't really be any constructive or positive suggestions on how to implement such a feat that matched my goals. The best advice would be, "No. Just no." While this proposal is not that gross, many of us feel it is beyond the line where constructive suggestions to implement the initial stated goal are not going to result in a positive play experience. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
There's been a lot of "it's overpowered" with Yunru looking for specifics because that is not what his math shows. I suggest that if anyone wants to say it's overpowered, give specific examples why they feel that way. And don't ignore the opportunity cost for raising INT (except for INT-focused characters like the Wizard).
That said, here's my thoughts. There are bonuses that add a flat amount, and bonuses that are multiplicative. If all we had was the first, things would be rather linear and hard to get our of hand. But the second, especially if it stacks with other bonuses, is where something can get overpowered.
An easy example of a multiplicative advantage is extra attack. For most weapon focused classes (not rogues), extra attack double expected damage. If you have other things which boost damage, they are also increased.
Polearm master is considered strong because it gives extra attacks. It gives an occasional reaction attack, and a reliable bonus action attack.
My issue with Precise Strike is that it is a multiplier that stacks with all of the existing multipliers as well as some of the other bonuses like sneak attack and divine smite.
What this means is that it can raise the bar above anything that currently exists because it can add to anything that already exists.
One possible solution is to allow only of the big weapon damage feats (GWM, SS, Polearm Master, and potentially this) to be active at once. That would give alternate paths to investing in your damage output without creating a new uber-tier that trivializes the damage output of those not pursuing it.
That said, here's my thoughts. There are bonuses that add a flat amount, and bonuses that are multiplicative. If all we had was the first, things would be rather linear and hard to get our of hand. But the second, especially if it stacks with other bonuses, is where something can get overpowered.
An easy example of a multiplicative advantage is extra attack. For most weapon focused classes (not rogues), extra attack double expected damage. If you have other things which boost damage, they are also increased.
Polearm master is considered strong because it gives extra attacks. It gives an occasional reaction attack, and a reliable bonus action attack.
My issue with Precise Strike is that it is a multiplier that stacks with all of the existing multipliers as well as some of the other bonuses like sneak attack and divine smite.
What this means is that it can raise the bar above anything that currently exists because it can add to anything that already exists.
One possible solution is to allow only of the big weapon damage feats (GWM, SS, Polearm Master, and potentially this) to be active at once. That would give alternate paths to investing in your damage output without creating a new uber-tier that trivializes the damage output of those not pursuing it.
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Ganymede81
First Post
I'm not sure this is the best approach. "Only certain classes/builds can benefit from this" is not a counter to an ability being overpowered. If an ability is only broken if Wizards take it, it is broken overall.
Even in revised form, the feat simply offers too much for a player that is already likely to have a high intelligence.
Remember what a critical hit does: double damage die and an automatic hit. A wizard could very easily end up netting criticals on a 16+, and those chances go up dramatically if he or she can get advantage.
Now pair that with the fact that this feat works on melee spell attacks: shocking grasp, Mordenkainen's sword, Bigby's hand, vampiric touch, etc. Those impacts have ripples beyond "whoa, my staff just did 2d6 damage instead of 1d6."
Expanded crit range as a feat is a tree that bears no fruit.
merwins
Explorer
I cannot find this rule anywhere. Could you point me in the right direction?
My reading is that a natural 20 is an automatic hit AND a critical hit (two separate qualities). Improved Critical (Champion ability) does NOT guarantee a hit on a 19.
Also, to the OP:
What is your goal in adding this feat?
From my POV, you see a need to extend the critical range further AND open it up to non-fighter classes -- specifically those characters with high INT. Many others seem to see no such need. That's why there's a disconnect, and some are suggesting that this is a waste of time.
If your goal is to give INT-emphasizing characters some benefit, great. Someone else suggested increasing by half your INT modifier, which I think was pretty good. Make sure you cap to a max range of 18-20, otherwise you naturally overshadow the Champion. Even so, I'd say this solution is pretty silly, since you can mock the capability of a 20th-level Champion while you're still 1st level.
If your goal is to expand crit range for non-fighters, focus on that. Just specify that fighters can't take the feat. Cheesy, but okay. There's precedent with feats that require spellcasting capability.
If your goal is just to give anyone a way to expand crit range, we can do that too. Just keep it very tight, and extend the crit range by 1. Anyone can take the feat. Once. This limits everyone to the Champion's Improved Critical feature, and the Champion can still take it and really excel.
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Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I believe at one point Yunru was talking about restricting the feat to melee weapon attacks, which would remove all spells and all ranged. Would that restriction meet your goal?
Again, I'm not trying to say the feat in it's current form is good - I've got my own issue with this stacking with other weapon damage feats. What I am trying to do is to end the cycle of "overpowered" "nope" that was going on by looking for specific problem areas so that either they get addressed and we all end up with a flavorful and reasonable feat, or Yunru decides there's too many abuses and decided not to try with this current setup.
transtemporal
Explorer
Elf bladesinger 2(or 6 for extra attack)/rogue x with the melee version of the feat would be pretty sweet. I have a feeling [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] is right though. Multiplicative feats or abilities are potentially unbalancing because they can stack with other existing multiplicative and flat bonuses. In addition, it can stack with all future multiplicative and flat bonuses!
Imagine an official feat that gives you more damage on a crit, say Savage Critical. Perfectly balanced (or even underpowered) with a normal crit range but interacts with this feat in unforeseen, powergamery ways.
Imagine an official feat that gives you more damage on a crit, say Savage Critical. Perfectly balanced (or even underpowered) with a normal crit range but interacts with this feat in unforeseen, powergamery ways.
Sorry this got lost in the masses. Here's a link to my rough maths:
https://1drv.ms/x/s!At-zPv0cZTn6hh08gTbb25wrm_QD
And yes, it stacks with PAM and GWM, which is of concern. However at some point or another a non-fighter is spreading themselves thin: It takes 4 ASI to max the attack stat and Int, plus an ASI to take the feat, so a normal class has already used all of theirs.
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