Predict this encounter
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
Infiniti2000
First Post
I'm in agreement with this assessment. If it wasn't cake, then (a) the rolls were particularly bad (perhaps an untimely critical or four), (b) the party used extremely poor tactics (i.e. charging the giants in melee), (c) important info was withheld from us.Old Gumphrey said:
Brother MacLaren
Explorer
The paladin always fights unmounted? Guess he doesn't have Spirited Charge; the smiting charging paladin is a potent weapon, and he could use Ride-By Attack so they have to chase him.
Does the ranger have an animal companion? A horse would be a good choice for him, especially if he has the Mounted Archery feat.
The sorcerer is really the most dangerous threat, especially if he has any Will save spells.
Does the ranger have an animal companion? A horse would be a good choice for him, especially if he has the Mounted Archery feat.
The sorcerer is really the most dangerous threat, especially if he has any Will save spells.
I was going to say that, too.
If the caster has some spells that require reflex saves with medium range or better these things are going to get their gooses cooked. If I was the Sorcerer I think I'd open up with some Confusions, Hold Monsters, and so forth. Assuming a 20 Charisma, which is pretty possible at this point, if not expected, the Frost Giants are facing the possibility of failing on anything below a 13. If the Sorcerer has feats like Empower and Maximize those Fireballs will be doing mega damage. Also, don't forget about spells like Ray of Dizziness that don't allow saves and have some fairly nasty affects going for them.
Round 1:
The Ranger picks out a Frost Giant of choice and says "You is my BEEYOTCH!" He should be Hasted at this point, too. Assuming a 14 Strength with a Mighty Longbow and 20 Dex and Rapid Shot the ranger will hit for 4d8+20 damage. The Sorcerer will neuter the beeyotch Giant with a well placed Confusion, Evard's Black Tentacles, or Hold Monster. The Pally will reach into the golf bag and plink the beeyotch Frost Giant for something like 1d8+3.
One of the Frost Giants will try to close with a charge if a spell like Confusion or Evard's isn't slowing him down. He'll smack the caster for a fairly solid Power Attacked Morningstar wallop, say 4d6+28 or 4d6+30 damage. Everybody will move away from the Giant, but he'll still be menacing until he fails against a status affect spell and gets neutered, too.
Take him down at leisure and then mop up the beeyotch giant.
If the caster has some spells that require reflex saves with medium range or better these things are going to get their gooses cooked. If I was the Sorcerer I think I'd open up with some Confusions, Hold Monsters, and so forth. Assuming a 20 Charisma, which is pretty possible at this point, if not expected, the Frost Giants are facing the possibility of failing on anything below a 13. If the Sorcerer has feats like Empower and Maximize those Fireballs will be doing mega damage. Also, don't forget about spells like Ray of Dizziness that don't allow saves and have some fairly nasty affects going for them.
Round 1:
The Ranger picks out a Frost Giant of choice and says "You is my BEEYOTCH!" He should be Hasted at this point, too. Assuming a 14 Strength with a Mighty Longbow and 20 Dex and Rapid Shot the ranger will hit for 4d8+20 damage. The Sorcerer will neuter the beeyotch Giant with a well placed Confusion, Evard's Black Tentacles, or Hold Monster. The Pally will reach into the golf bag and plink the beeyotch Frost Giant for something like 1d8+3.
One of the Frost Giants will try to close with a charge if a spell like Confusion or Evard's isn't slowing him down. He'll smack the caster for a fairly solid Power Attacked Morningstar wallop, say 4d6+28 or 4d6+30 damage. Everybody will move away from the Giant, but he'll still be menacing until he fails against a status affect spell and gets neutered, too.
Take him down at leisure and then mop up the beeyotch giant.
Quasqueton
First Post
OK, here is what happened:
Having told them there was maybe another half hour left to the LSS duration, I noted the time on my watch.
It took them a while to open the windows and look around, and even then, they just started with one window (the “wrong” one). Eventually they opened the other window and saw the one giant standing about 60’ away. The paladin detected evil (and found it) on the giant. They heard another one behind the shelter.
They debated and discussed the situation for a long time. They eventually let the archer take a shot at the giant they could see, but that just ticked off the giant and brought him up to the shelter where the archer and sorcerer couldn’t target him without revealing themselves for attack (which the sorcerer did, once, to cast evard’s black tentacles – not real useful against giants).
They considered just teleporting out. They had no need or reason to fight the giants. Heck, their whole plan for the day was to teleport back to their base city anyway. The amazing thing here was really a normal thing for this group – they just discussed everything without actually making a plan or taking an action.
The sorcerer had suggested they just teleport out. The paladin dismissed his dire wolf because the sorcerer couldn’t take it with them (Large creatures count for two in the teleport). Then they started to discuss their options again.
I looked at my watch; 40 minutes had passed since I told them 30 minutes remained of the LSS. The sorcerer said, “I’ll just teleport us out,” and moved his mini to be between the two other PCs.
Because I had given them more than appropriate time for their decision, I told the sorcerer to roll initiative, as the LSS was about to end. The initiative was for what happened first, his teleport or the LSS ending.
He won initiative. And then the group again started discussing the topic. They talked it out for another 20 seconds or so before I stopped them and said, “The shelter ends.”
Now they were standing in the middle of the desert with two giants, with reach, on either side of them (and with no dire wolf). We all rolled initiative and the battle began. They were brutalized by the giants before they managed to teleport out. I could have killed them had I taken every AoO and made all the giant’s attacks (I only did a full attack once, even though they could have taken such every round.)
So, what I thought would be a challenging fight, but with the PCs having a tactical and initiative advantage (they could choose how and when to exit the shelter), turned into a TPK that only failed to happen because I pulled the punches.
They even commented afterwards that they set up the surrounded tactical disadvantage themselves.
I asked this question here because I wanted to see if the set up was just truly overpowering and killer, or if it was within realistic realms for these characters. I thought with the tactical situation totally in their hands, they could handle it. I was surprised at how that advantage was let go.
Quasqueton
Having told them there was maybe another half hour left to the LSS duration, I noted the time on my watch.
It took them a while to open the windows and look around, and even then, they just started with one window (the “wrong” one). Eventually they opened the other window and saw the one giant standing about 60’ away. The paladin detected evil (and found it) on the giant. They heard another one behind the shelter.
They debated and discussed the situation for a long time. They eventually let the archer take a shot at the giant they could see, but that just ticked off the giant and brought him up to the shelter where the archer and sorcerer couldn’t target him without revealing themselves for attack (which the sorcerer did, once, to cast evard’s black tentacles – not real useful against giants).
They considered just teleporting out. They had no need or reason to fight the giants. Heck, their whole plan for the day was to teleport back to their base city anyway. The amazing thing here was really a normal thing for this group – they just discussed everything without actually making a plan or taking an action.
The sorcerer had suggested they just teleport out. The paladin dismissed his dire wolf because the sorcerer couldn’t take it with them (Large creatures count for two in the teleport). Then they started to discuss their options again.
I looked at my watch; 40 minutes had passed since I told them 30 minutes remained of the LSS. The sorcerer said, “I’ll just teleport us out,” and moved his mini to be between the two other PCs.
Because I had given them more than appropriate time for their decision, I told the sorcerer to roll initiative, as the LSS was about to end. The initiative was for what happened first, his teleport or the LSS ending.
He won initiative. And then the group again started discussing the topic. They talked it out for another 20 seconds or so before I stopped them and said, “The shelter ends.”
Now they were standing in the middle of the desert with two giants, with reach, on either side of them (and with no dire wolf). We all rolled initiative and the battle began. They were brutalized by the giants before they managed to teleport out. I could have killed them had I taken every AoO and made all the giant’s attacks (I only did a full attack once, even though they could have taken such every round.)
So, what I thought would be a challenging fight, but with the PCs having a tactical and initiative advantage (they could choose how and when to exit the shelter), turned into a TPK that only failed to happen because I pulled the punches.
They even commented afterwards that they set up the surrounded tactical disadvantage themselves.
I asked this question here because I wanted to see if the set up was just truly overpowering and killer, or if it was within realistic realms for these characters. I thought with the tactical situation totally in their hands, they could handle it. I was surprised at how that advantage was let go.
Quasqueton
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Your rules regarding table talk changed the encounter significantly.
I'm not saying it was wrong or bad. I've started countdowns myself to hurry a player along who is bogging down the game with indecision.
But that said, it wasn't entirely the players who turned the encounter deadly, but also (in large part) the DM-choice to equate out-of-game time (discussing tactics) with in-game time (the Secure Shelter's duration).
I'm not saying it was wrong or bad. I've started countdowns myself to hurry a player along who is bogging down the game with indecision.
But that said, it wasn't entirely the players who turned the encounter deadly, but also (in large part) the DM-choice to equate out-of-game time (discussing tactics) with in-game time (the Secure Shelter's duration).
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
The PCs (almost) managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I hope it was a salutary experience for them- perhaps next time they won't spend 40 minutes to take 6 seconds worth action ("I teleport everybody out").
I hope it was a salutary experience for them- perhaps next time they won't spend 40 minutes to take 6 seconds worth action ("I teleport everybody out").
Quasqueton
First Post
Yeah, I expected a “you’re a bad DM” comment or two. What "rules regarding table talk" are you referring to?
So that I know the proper way to handle this in the future, how long should I have given them to talk the situation out? An hour at the table for 30 minutes in the game? More? And once I had the sorcerer roll initiative to beat the LSS dropping, how long (out-of-game) should I have given them for one round (in-game)? A full minute? 10?
Quasqueton
Rystil Arden
First Post
I think people's trouble is more with the fact that it seems like you didn't tell the group that you were equating RL time with IC time. If you had said "You have 30 minutes to discuss and then the shelter drops" it might have gone differently, particularly if you gave a five minute warning. If you actually did do either or both of these, then I personally have no trouble with your decision to equate RL time to IC time. If you didn't tell them, then it was probably a bit unfair just because metagame time was advancing in game time and they didn't know about it when their characters in game would have realised that substantial in game time was passing.Quasqueton said:
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