Predictions of the d20/gaming Industry
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King_Stannis
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Originally posted by King_Stannis
do you think about the 12 year old chinese girl who assembles your shirts in a sweatshop under what we would call barbaric conditions? of course you don't. so why the hell do i have to worry about your employees?
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answer by johnnephew
Do you also dismiss the 12-year-old Chinese girl as "playing games" for a living, and advise her to get another job if she doesn't like it?
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actually, though, john, it was you who brought the human element into it. i'm merely trying to point out to you that when you go "on the other side of the counter", so to speak, i doubt you think at all about the same things you're asking us to care about. i'm sure that when you or i plunk down $20 for a shirt at JC Penney's (or wherever), there is no thought of the worker who made the shirt or his/her economic condition. yet you are asking us to consider these things when we purchase your products. i just don't think that's very fair.
as an employer, i salute you. you must be a great guy to work for, and i'm sure you do the most you can for your employees. but asking me to care about them is, as i said, not very fair. and, it's not my job to make sure they are paid fairly, either.
if it is costing alot to produce these products, what about PDF's? surely those are less labor intensive than printing a product the traditional way?
do you think about the 12 year old chinese girl who assembles your shirts in a sweatshop under what we would call barbaric conditions? of course you don't. so why the hell do i have to worry about your employees?
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answer by johnnephew
Do you also dismiss the 12-year-old Chinese girl as "playing games" for a living, and advise her to get another job if she doesn't like it?
==============================================
actually, though, john, it was you who brought the human element into it. i'm merely trying to point out to you that when you go "on the other side of the counter", so to speak, i doubt you think at all about the same things you're asking us to care about. i'm sure that when you or i plunk down $20 for a shirt at JC Penney's (or wherever), there is no thought of the worker who made the shirt or his/her economic condition. yet you are asking us to consider these things when we purchase your products. i just don't think that's very fair.
as an employer, i salute you. you must be a great guy to work for, and i'm sure you do the most you can for your employees. but asking me to care about them is, as i said, not very fair. and, it's not my job to make sure they are paid fairly, either.
if it is costing alot to produce these products, what about PDF's? surely those are less labor intensive than printing a product the traditional way?
Psion said:
Add to this the factor that weeding out products that sell smaller quantities (as has been suggested several times already) will occur from raised prices. People mention this as a positive thing but I don't agree. It could kill many of the niche markets and sets up the stage for there only to exist a smaller number of products that cater to the majority. Weeding out of smaller selling products = increased homogeneity among products as they all need to target only the larger demographic segments. No?
Re: Re: a note about the computer game industry
Video gamer progrs get paid very poor wages in comparison to other programmers. My friend graduated with an engineering degree from Caltech and got a job programming games. By the time he was promoted to *lead* programmer he was making 30,000 a year. He would have probably been making 60,000 bare minimum in a non-game industry, probably quite a bit more. If he contracted he could have been making as much as 100 per hour. Do the math. My estimates might be a little off here and there, but not too far.
Again, this is because it's fun to do. Fun jobs pay less. It's simple economics. Big employee supply & limited demand = low wages. I wanted to be a game programmer too, but I've got a family to raise so I'm not.
Tuerny said:
Video gamer progrs get paid very poor wages in comparison to other programmers. My friend graduated with an engineering degree from Caltech and got a job programming games. By the time he was promoted to *lead* programmer he was making 30,000 a year. He would have probably been making 60,000 bare minimum in a non-game industry, probably quite a bit more. If he contracted he could have been making as much as 100 per hour. Do the math. My estimates might be a little off here and there, but not too far.
Again, this is because it's fun to do. Fun jobs pay less. It's simple economics. Big employee supply & limited demand = low wages. I wanted to be a game programmer too, but I've got a family to raise so I'm not.
JohnNephew
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King_Stannis said:
What is this "JC Penney's" of which you speak? Like most Game Industry Folk, my wardrobe consists entirely of promotional clothing received in trade or as freebies at conventions. And, every once in a long while, my wife picks me up something used at Ragstock. She says I really need to wear pants, and that t-shirts and baseball caps are not enough.
More seriously -- on the, "why are we here justifying ourselves?" topic, the real reason is just that we're here, so it happens. We think and talk about these kinds of things anyhow, but thanks to ENWorld everyone can join the discussion. I mean, heck, I was just wandering through and saw Ryan and Erik's remarks, which I agree with, and the counter-arguments. I have thought a lot about these matters as I wrestle with the issues of trying to figure out how to run my business and what is the Right Thing to Do, for my family, customers, and employees. It's a lively debate, and I think it's rather amazing that the internet lets the theorizing all be out here rather than just being a silent game of move and countermove in the marketplace. I think it's also good for publishers to weigh the factors in the debate for themselves, and to be conscious of the issues, rather than simply proceeding somewhat randomly. (I know that's how I started in the business almost a decade and a half ago -- basically, look at what TSR was charging for a book, and then guess that we could charge $1 or maybe $2 more for a book of the same size, without having a clue about our costs or margins or the details of whether we actually could sustain a business with those numbers.)
King_Stannis
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Umbran said:Completely off-topic:
Gosh darn it, Stannis! I haven't read "A Clash of Kings" yet! And you've got one heck of a spoiler in that .sig! Arrrrgh!
i am VERY sorry for that. actually, the thought never crossed my mind, and it probably should have. i put it in because it was one of my favorite passages of the series....
i can only say that i'm very sorry and have removed it so no one else is blindsided.
again, my apologies Umbran.
King_Stannis
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JohnNephew said:
What is this "JC Penney's" of which you speak? Like most Game Industry Folk, my wardrobe consists entirely of promotional clothing received in trade or as freebies at conventions. And, every once in a long while, my wife picks me up something used at Ragstock. She says I really need to wear pants, and that t-shirts and baseball caps are not enough.
More seriously -- on the, "why are we here justifying ourselves?" topic, the real reason is just that we're here, so it happens. We think and talk about these kinds of things anyhow, but thanks to ENWorld everyone can join the discussion. I mean, heck, I was just wandering through and saw Ryan and Erik's remarks, which I agree with, and the counter-arguments. I have thought a lot about these matters as I wrestle with the issues of trying to figure out how to run my business and what is the Right Thing to Do, for my family, customers, and employees. It's a lively debate, and I think it's rather amazing that the internet lets the theorizing all be out here rather than just being a silent game of move and countermove in the marketplace. I think it's also good for publishers to weigh the factors in the debate for themselves, and to be conscious of the issues, rather than simply proceeding somewhat randomly. (I know that's how I started in the business almost a decade and a half ago -- basically, look at what TSR was charging for a book, and then guess that we could charge $1 or maybe $2 more for a book of the same size, without having a clue about our costs or margins or the details of whether we actually could sustain a business with those numbers.)
good points all. in a sense, i suppose it's better for the consumer to be able to have this debate rather than being blindsided by an unexplained price increase. it may help in the decisionmaking of the consumers that see the arguments.
i think there's little more to be added from my point of view. i can only say that, as with anything, i will weigh the cost vs the value. just as you will weigh the potential gain by raising prices versus the potential losses by doing so.
as an aside, i am a big fan of your company, john. so the irony here is, as long as the increase isn't obscene or prohibitive, i'll still patronize your company's products. i can think of no better way to say "no hard feelings".
King_Stannis said:
Oh, it actually isn't a big deal. It is a dandy of a quote, and I might have done the same thing. It was a mild-frustration "Arrgh!", not a real upset "Arrgh!". If I were really upset, I wouldn't attach a thing you'd call a "smiley" to it
People should be able to put quotes in their .sigs without worrying too much. If the quote has significant plot information buried in it, I'd just suggest you put the attribution before the quote, rather than after.
King_Stannis
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Umbran said:
Oh, it actually isn't a big deal. It is a dandy of a quote, and I might have done the same thing. It was a mild-frustration "Arrgh!", not a real upset "Arrgh!". If I were really upset, I wouldn't attach a thing you'd call a "smiley" to it
People should be able to put quotes in their .sigs without worrying too much. If the quote has significant plot information buried in it, I'd just suggest you put the attribution before the quote, rather than after.
thanks for your gracious reply.
i might add, that while it was a spoiler, i really don't think the series will be ruined for you because of it. discovering how it happened is just as amazing as it happening.
please keep reading the series!
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