SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Well. I've just spent some time reading through this whole thread. I must say, I have learned quite a bit. I appreciate the different game-designers contributing extensive explanations, as well as arguments.
I also appreciate my friends Ulrick and King Stannis, in particular, for their own posts, and opinions.
Just a few of my own thoughts, though.
Movies here in my neck o'the woods are $8.50 each. For my wife and I, add a $4.00 bucket of popcorn, two $4.00 sodas, and two candies at $2.75, and what is that?
$32.50
For a two-hour movie, that 50% of the time is good, 25% is just average, and 25% is shall we say, less than thrilling. (Meaning we probably should have waited until the movie hit the video stores!)
Now, oftentimes, before or after the movie, we also stop at a Greek place close to the theater, to get some Gyros and such. For two, it comes to about $25.00
So, for a decent quasi-fast-food meal, and a movie, we spend $60.00
That's for one night, for about four hours total entertainment.
Now, a game book, whether it's $20, or $40, is something that I keep forever. I use it, mine it, read it, and am inspired by it. Usually. Hopefully.
As a customer, I try and keep such things in perspective.
I want good products. Good products are only going to be produced by good people, who are happy. Happy, as in, being able to make a good living at it. "Surviving" is not the same as "Good." When I go to a good restaurant, and the service is good, I tip well. I've also waited a few tables in my time, and I can tell you something--
If the restaurant has a clientele that tips poorly--guess what?
The good waiters--the ones that make an effort to know something about the menu, the different flavours, how the cheescake will go with the seafood meal you just had, and why the Mondavi Cabernet Sauvignon will be perfect for your T-Bone, as well as keeping your drinks filled *before* you get to shake it empty, and are thus waiting--leave to do something else, because the people are too damn cheap. Thus, as they leave, you--as also in me, us,--the customer--is left with lazy, snotty servers who barely do an adequate job. What's happened? The entire texture and quality of your dining experience has thus changed. Like in restaurants, if the service is good, I tip well. If the service is outstanding, I tip beyond good, and I make it a point to personally thank the server, and even mention a word to the boss.
Well, in a similar vein, game-designers need to make money--and good money. That doesn't mean that I want to be screwed--by no means. But I also buy lots of other, non-game books. Hardcover. History, Philosophy, and Theology usually. And guess what?
For good hardcover books on those subjetcs, written by top authors, with some color drawings, some good black and white, maybe some cool maps, too, and well-bound, with other good production values, well, they are sometimes in the $25-30 range. More often than not, though, they are in the $35-60 dollar range.
Sometimes, even more, like $80-100 dollars.
Thus, if you had a 280-400 page hardcover game-book, with color, black and white, some cool maps, well-produced, and written well--how much would a fair price for such a product, and service, be?
It seems that depending on page count, and other factors, some 10% might be in the $50-65 range.
65% would be in the $35-50 range.
25% would be in the $25-35 range.
By such analysis, poorly produced stuff that is overpriced at $15-25 for inferior product needs to be weeded out, and more top-quality stuff produced, that can rightfully command such prices. If the quality is there, then the customer should be willing to buy.
I am, and I do. I probably don't spend as much money a month as some do, and maybe more than others. I usually spend about $60 a month on game stuff. I could, and occasionally spend more, but after all, besides the exhorbitant costs to attend college, I do have other activities that I partake in. Like movies and dinner with my wife, or going to lunch with some friends. So it gets down to where you want to spend your discretionary income for the month--whether that total discretionary income is $100, or $400.
Game books, if well produced, could go up a bit--say $5-10 range, or so. Some, like FR, WOT, and COC, are already there. Game designers need to live well. I want them happy, to continue making cool stuff, that makes me and my friends happy.
On another note, I used to play EPIC SPACE MARINE, by Games Workshop. I probably spent $2000 or more over several years. Then, guess what?
Games Workshop decided to kill the game, in favour of a new, revamped, changed, "2nd Edition" game. For, of course, $80 for the new rules, and new jacked prices on all of the miniatures--all of the tanks, troops, assault vehicles, and so on. I watched them take a Warlord Titan, that six months before I paid $8.50 for--now, in the "new game" essentially the *SAME MINIATURE* was now $18.00! Some of the new miniatures were $25.00! The entire game "hobby"--that of playing EPIC SPACE MARINE, now renamed "EPIC 40K"--just *poof*--became impossibly more expensive. The earlier version was a fine game. The new one made a few changes, but none of them were really necessary. In addition, they just invalidated all of the "old game." Guess what?
I walked away from that hobby, never to buy anything again, especially from Games Workshop. That was over six years ago. ALL of my friends who played, did the same. At the time, we were all spending at least $20.00 per month on Games Workshop figures. Now, we are no longer customers. So, when raising prices, one has to beware of how much, for what product, and at all times, don't cancel game lines, then a year later repackage it like Games Workshop does, and then double the price;--thus taking your customers for granted, and thinking they must be idiots. Games Workshop made a big mistake. My local game store owner tells me that GW sales have dropped enormously, primarily because of these kinds of practices. GW figures and games collect dust now, whereas years back, they would *sell out in hours!*
So marketing has to be smart, and responsible. Don't abuse the customers. Then, when new product is produced, do it well, and with a fair price, and customers will buy it, and continue to be loyal.
It's my bedtime now. Thankyou.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Well. I've just spent some time reading through this whole thread. I must say, I have learned quite a bit. I appreciate the different game-designers contributing extensive explanations, as well as arguments.
I also appreciate my friends Ulrick and King Stannis, in particular, for their own posts, and opinions.Just a few of my own thoughts, though.
Movies here in my neck o'the woods are $8.50 each. For my wife and I, add a $4.00 bucket of popcorn, two $4.00 sodas, and two candies at $2.75, and what is that?
$32.50
For a two-hour movie, that 50% of the time is good, 25% is just average, and 25% is shall we say, less than thrilling. (Meaning we probably should have waited until the movie hit the video stores!
)Now, oftentimes, before or after the movie, we also stop at a Greek place close to the theater, to get some Gyros and such. For two, it comes to about $25.00
So, for a decent quasi-fast-food meal, and a movie, we spend $60.00
That's for one night, for about four hours total entertainment.
Now, a game book, whether it's $20, or $40, is something that I keep forever. I use it, mine it, read it, and am inspired by it. Usually. Hopefully.
As a customer, I try and keep such things in perspective.
I want good products. Good products are only going to be produced by good people, who are happy. Happy, as in, being able to make a good living at it. "Surviving" is not the same as "Good." When I go to a good restaurant, and the service is good, I tip well. I've also waited a few tables in my time, and I can tell you something--
If the restaurant has a clientele that tips poorly--guess what?
The good waiters--the ones that make an effort to know something about the menu, the different flavours, how the cheescake will go with the seafood meal you just had, and why the Mondavi Cabernet Sauvignon will be perfect for your T-Bone, as well as keeping your drinks filled *before* you get to shake it empty, and are thus waiting--leave to do something else, because the people are too damn cheap. Thus, as they leave, you--as also in me, us,--the customer--is left with lazy, snotty servers who barely do an adequate job. What's happened? The entire texture and quality of your dining experience has thus changed. Like in restaurants, if the service is good, I tip well. If the service is outstanding, I tip beyond good, and I make it a point to personally thank the server, and even mention a word to the boss.
Well, in a similar vein, game-designers need to make money--and good money. That doesn't mean that I want to be screwed--by no means. But I also buy lots of other, non-game books. Hardcover. History, Philosophy, and Theology usually. And guess what?
For good hardcover books on those subjetcs, written by top authors, with some color drawings, some good black and white, maybe some cool maps, too, and well-bound, with other good production values, well, they are sometimes in the $25-30 range. More often than not, though, they are in the $35-60 dollar range.
Sometimes, even more, like $80-100 dollars.
Thus, if you had a 280-400 page hardcover game-book, with color, black and white, some cool maps, well-produced, and written well--how much would a fair price for such a product, and service, be?
It seems that depending on page count, and other factors, some 10% might be in the $50-65 range.
65% would be in the $35-50 range.
25% would be in the $25-35 range.
By such analysis, poorly produced stuff that is overpriced at $15-25 for inferior product needs to be weeded out, and more top-quality stuff produced, that can rightfully command such prices. If the quality is there, then the customer should be willing to buy.
I am, and I do. I probably don't spend as much money a month as some do, and maybe more than others. I usually spend about $60 a month on game stuff. I could, and occasionally spend more, but after all, besides the exhorbitant costs to attend college, I do have other activities that I partake in. Like movies and dinner with my wife, or going to lunch with some friends. So it gets down to where you want to spend your discretionary income for the month--whether that total discretionary income is $100, or $400.
Game books, if well produced, could go up a bit--say $5-10 range, or so. Some, like FR, WOT, and COC, are already there. Game designers need to live well. I want them happy, to continue making cool stuff, that makes me and my friends happy.
On another note, I used to play EPIC SPACE MARINE, by Games Workshop. I probably spent $2000 or more over several years. Then, guess what?
Games Workshop decided to kill the game, in favour of a new, revamped, changed, "2nd Edition" game. For, of course, $80 for the new rules, and new jacked prices on all of the miniatures--all of the tanks, troops, assault vehicles, and so on. I watched them take a Warlord Titan, that six months before I paid $8.50 for--now, in the "new game" essentially the *SAME MINIATURE* was now $18.00! Some of the new miniatures were $25.00! The entire game "hobby"--that of playing EPIC SPACE MARINE, now renamed "EPIC 40K"--just *poof*--became impossibly more expensive. The earlier version was a fine game. The new one made a few changes, but none of them were really necessary. In addition, they just invalidated all of the "old game." Guess what?
I walked away from that hobby, never to buy anything again, especially from Games Workshop. That was over six years ago. ALL of my friends who played, did the same. At the time, we were all spending at least $20.00 per month on Games Workshop figures. Now, we are no longer customers. So, when raising prices, one has to beware of how much, for what product, and at all times, don't cancel game lines, then a year later repackage it like Games Workshop does, and then double the price;--thus taking your customers for granted, and thinking they must be idiots. Games Workshop made a big mistake. My local game store owner tells me that GW sales have dropped enormously, primarily because of these kinds of practices. GW figures and games collect dust now, whereas years back, they would *sell out in hours!*
So marketing has to be smart, and responsible. Don't abuse the customers. Then, when new product is produced, do it well, and with a fair price, and customers will buy it, and continue to be loyal.
It's my bedtime now. Thankyou.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
