D&D 5E (2024) Preferences in a New Official 5.5e Specific Setting

What Flavor of Setting would you like them to create?

  • Heroic Fantasy

    Votes: 30 27.5%
  • Swords and Sorcery

    Votes: 39 35.8%
  • Epic Fantasy

    Votes: 12 11.0%
  • Mythic Fantasy

    Votes: 15 13.8%
  • Dark Fantasy

    Votes: 26 23.9%
  • Bright Fantasy

    Votes: 16 14.7%
  • Intrigue and Politics

    Votes: 20 18.3%
  • Mystery and Investigation

    Votes: 17 15.6%
  • War and Battle

    Votes: 16 14.7%
  • Wuxia/Anime

    Votes: 26 23.9%
  • Modern Fantasy

    Votes: 18 16.5%
  • Urban Fantasy

    Votes: 21 19.3%
  • Science Fantasy

    Votes: 18 16.5%
  • Apocalyptic or Post Apocalyptic Fantasy

    Votes: 12 11.0%
  • Other (Please describe)

    Votes: 6 5.5%
  • Carmageddon

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Paranormal Romance

    Votes: 0 0.0%

Elric can interact with the beings of Law and Chaos directly. (Both seem to have Evil tendencies.) But they themselves are limited in how they can interact with mortal affairs and depend on Elric to do their bidding. All of this translates into D&D as low slot spells and Warlock patrons.
No. That's simply not the case. Their ability to alter/influence things on a universal level is why the Eternal Champion even exists. The multiverse created the Eternal Champion to correct imbalances caused by one side or the other(Law or Chaos) when that side starts winning or completely wins and upsets the balance of a particular universe. Elric's own universe had to be destroyed because it was too lopsided in favor of chaos.

The Lords of Law and Lords of Chaos might not be able to wave their hands and destroy planets directly when balance is properly asserted, but if the balance is upset, they can start taking direct control and intervention.

Arioch created the race of Mabden(men) to destroy Corum's people(elves). He didn't have to go through a worshipper to have it done.
 

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Elric can interact with the beings of Law and Chaos directly. (Both seem to have Evil tendencies.) But they themselves are limited in how they can interact with mortal affairs and depend on Elric to do their bidding. All of this translates into D&D as low slot spells and Warlock patrons.
There is no good and evil in Moorcock's multiverse, only balance, and the lack of it.
 

There is no good and evil in Moorcock's multiverse, only balance, and the lack of it.
While mostly about balance (and the effect of extreme chaos and law, evil also was a viewpoint.

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Said Stormbringer, book 6.
 

While mostly about balance (and the effect of extreme chaos and law, evil also was a viewpoint.

View attachment 424900
Said Stormbringer, book 6.
Right. Moorcock had Law and Chaos as the primary movers, because those were multiversal forces. Law tended to be good, but at extremes drove stagnation which was evil. Chaos wasn't inherently evil, driving innovation and improvement, but at extremes warped and twisted everything in an evil way.
 

There is no good and evil in Moorcock's multiverse, only balance, and the lack of it.
But for a D&D alignment, they disrespect and harm human life, predatory, merciless, whence Evil. For Moorcock, the interactivity between Law and Chaos might be Good. But Law or Chaos on its own is Evil.
 

No. That's simply not the case. Their ability to alter/influence things on a universal level is why the Eternal Champion even exists. The multiverse created the Eternal Champion to correct imbalances caused by one side or the other(Law or Chaos) when that side starts winning or completely wins and upsets the balance of a particular universe. Elric's own universe had to be destroyed because it was too lopsided in favor of chaos.

The Lords of Law and Lords of Chaos might not be able to wave their hands and destroy planets directly when balance is properly asserted, but if the balance is upset, they can start taking direct control and intervention.

Arioch created the race of Mabden(men) to destroy Corum's people(elves). He didn't have to go through a worshipper to have it done.
In Moorcock, Law and Chaos negate each other, and Cosmic Balance is a force. Hence the influence of Chaos is restricted. Hence low slot spells, Warlock patrons, etcetera. These D&D alignment forces can exert high slot spells too, but typically relate to low level character options.
 

Moorcock Law and Chaos is more about mathematical predictability versus randomness.

D&D Law and Chaos is more about group identity versus individual identity.

But quantum particle (Chaotic) wave (Lawful), might bridge the mathematical and social concepts.
 

Which brings us to Conan the Barbarian vs Conan the Destroyer. Much of sword and sorcery's defining elements come from the fact that it is a warrior facing, not world ending antagonists, but more local and focused antagonists. It also rarely uses a comic relief character. And, of course, the protagonists often fail. Conan the Barbarian had all of that. Conan the Destroyer went against all of it - which is why it has a completely different tone and mood.

That is why I said Conan the Barbarian is the definition of the genre. More than Howard's books. Certainly more than Elric. He is the definition, for good or bad. He literally was an outcast, sought revenge, failed, and then succeeded after great personal loss. That is sword and sorcery.
Of course, the problem is making that all work under the context of a power-scaling group dynamic Game.

Aspects like localized baddies, sacrifice and loss, etc is very hard to do in a game where four or more players sit around, eating Cheetos and quoting Monty Python. It's the same reason why horror in RPGs tends to be very different from horror in other media; a lot of the core defining tropes (weak protagonists, isolation, escalating body count) aren't well suited to reoccurring character group play with power accumulation.

So you end up stealing the wallpaper of the genre, not the structure. In horror, D&D steals the spooky castle and vampire lord, but it can't recreate the visceral fear of Harker locked in Dracula's Castle. The same is true if S&S; you're barbarian can look like Conan but he can't be the invincible slab of meat going against overwhelming forces playing out a rather intimate tail of revenge. At best he's a strong warrior fighting a giant snake monster.

Which I guess is to say that in the context of RPGs in general and D&D in specific, the GAME elements have to come first. You still design for the fighter, cleric, wizard and rogue, even if they are all wearing loin clothes and sandals. You can't beat D&D into confirming to the genre tropes without it breaking somewhere. So the best you can do is give it a gritty sand-covered coat of paint.

Which, bases on the original premise of this thread, is all an official D&D S&S setting would do. No low magic, rewritten classes, or radical overhauls. D&D with a taste of the S&S flavor. Anything else requires more rewriting than an official product would dare and probably is needed.
 

It wasn't empowerment for any gms. Empowerment would have been guidance and advice on how those gms you reference in the bolded bit could learn to use those tools. The 5e design didn't just hide them so they were not "visible", it straight up designed against their use at a foundational math level. Claiming it was some form of dm empowerment is the same sort of abusive emotional manipulation as "I'm only doing $thing because I love you" and nothing good comes from treating it like a reasonable claim.
I mean...

I guess I have to use harsher language..

It was Empowerment for selfish GMs. They didn't want advice, guidance, or even clear math. They wanted control. Writing down rules guides players expectations they didn't want. 2013's flawed survey use overrepresented them.
 

In Moorcock, Law and Chaos negate each other, and Cosmic Balance is a force. Hence the influence of Chaos is restricted. Hence low slot spells, Warlock patrons, etcetera. These D&D alignment forces can exert high slot spells too, but typically relate to low level character options.
You are just flat out wrong. Arioch directly creates an entire race on a planet in order to wipe another out completely. He was not restricted. They do not negate each other. They strive AGAINST each other, and sometimes one or the other gains supremacy, which is why the Eternal Champion exists. If they negated each other, there would never have been any books as there would be no need for a champion to right the imbalances.

Cosmic Balance is a force, but it only steps in if Law or Chaos gains superiority, and even then not for thousands of years.
 

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