D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[Garthanos]

If you want to attack everyone around you in 3.5 that's a massive nest of feats to get Whirlwind Attack. In 4e it's a single power. I'm not sure you can do it in 5e. Pathfinder 2e meanwhile requires a 14th level feat.

Spend every single extra attack AND CS die and a ACTION surge on several BM maneuvers... urrr meh.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think that's the big issue here. Hate is a rabid extreme and extremes are rarely valid. For example, I would hate someone who murdered one of my children. I would not hate someone who hit one of my children. Come to my child's defense, beat that person up and dislike them forever, sure, but not hate.

I often see people incorrectly use the word "hate" instead of just saying that they really dislike something. People will usually react in a much stronger way to hate.

My point though - such a use isn't actually incorrect.

 

[Neonchameleon]

We have went over why you can't just cherry pick feats and ask about the cherry picked example.

Except you are completely and utterly wrong.

What matters is the options you actually use in play. You pick the ones that are most appealing to you. Designing a character you like is the very definition of cherry-picking. And what you don't use is not actually relevant.

So to not cherry pick involves not looking at actual play. Which is about the silliest thing you can do.

Level 11 Hunter Ranger feature. Or a fighter with action surge and lot's of extra attacks effectively can do the same thing.

In short a non-fighter and someone ultra-high level burning everything they have.

By the way you left off the 4e versions level and if it was encounter, at will or daily.

There are several. The first one I can think of was a Level 3 encounter power.

I'd say subclasses

Giving all the classes subclasses with significant mechanical weight was lifted straight out of 4e. Literally all the 4e classes had subclasses. For fighters there were (from memory) weapon masters, battle ragers, brawlers, tempests, and arena fighters. Rogues got artful dodgers, brutal scoundrels, cunning sneaks, ruthless ruffians, and some others I've forgotten. Each of which gave a non-trivial bonus (although the PHB weapon masters were boring) and a bonus to a range of powers.

 

[FrozenNorth]

It depends on if your arguing what a system could have done or what it does. Cherry picking a few extreme examples where the rules behaved differently doesn't really counter points about 90% of powers being1[W]+small effect and those feeling samey

I don’t think I understand your point.

In 4e, at-will weapon powers tend to do 1[W] + a small effect.

In 5e, the equivalent is an attack with your weapon, which also does 1[W] damage.

I’m not seeing the distinction you are trying to make.

 

[Maxperson]

My point though - such a use isn't actually incorrect.

Hate is an intense or passionate dislike, not just a strong or even very strong one. If a game is provoking negative feelings that intensely in you, there might be other issues going on. It's just a game and you don't even have to play it.

I still think that perhaps you are using it incorrectly.

 

[FrogReaver]

Hate is an intense or passionate dislike, not just a strong or even very strong one. If a game is provoking negative feelings that intensely in you, there might be other issues going on. It's just a game and you don't even have to play it.

I still think that perhaps you are using it incorrectly.

1. That's not the only definition
2. Even that definition defines hate as a form of dislike.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don’t think I understand your point.

In 4e, at-will weapon powers tend to do 1[W] + a small effect.

In 5e, the equivalent is an attack with your weapon, which also does 1[W] damage.

I’m not seeing the distinction you are trying to make.

I think FrogReaver thinks that Tide of Iron (1[W] plus drive the enemy back five feet and follow up) is too simmilar to Cleave (1[W] plus do your STR modifier damage to an enemy adjacent to your target). I find this ... confusing. Especially with minion rules in play.

 

[FrogReaver]

I think FrogReaver thinks that Tide of Iron (1[W] plus drive the enemy back five feet and follow up) is too simmilar to Cleave (1[W] plus do your STR modifier damage to an enemy adjacent to your target). I find this ... confusing. Especially with minion rules in play.

Let's let Frogreaver speak for himself.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Let's let Frogreaver speak for himself.

OK. Perhaps you'd care to explain. Because that's the more charitable of the three possible understandings I've picked up from you so far.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don’t think I understand your point.

In 4e, at-will weapon powers tend to do 1[W] + a small effect.

In 5e, the equivalent is an attack with your weapon, which also does 1[W] damage.

I’m not seeing the distinction you are trying to make.

Well - the particular quote which you quoted from me was in response to a few non 1[W] style powers.

In other words, don't provide me the few rare examples that break the mold I'm talking about to try to prove your point. Stick with the kinds of powers I'm actually saying made things feel samey for me.