D&D 4E Presentation vs design... vs philosophy

[CapnZapp]

I see Pathfinder 2 has reentered the discussion!

The above example of a feat also reflects something that I dislike about PF2. On the one hand, the feat says that if you want to be Legendary at Climbing, you can. The feat also says that if you want to dig into your reserves and Climb slightly further by making an Athletics check, you need to be level 7, have a Master in Climbing, and to take the appropriate feat.

It is mindboggling to me to ask the player to be impressed by "climbing slightly further" in a world where magic exists. If the Wizard can fly at level 7, "legendary climbing" should happen at level 7 at the very latest.

Why would I want to spend even a second on optimizing niggly little improvements to mundane climbing at high level, when everybody's teleporting or planesailing?

 

[Eric V]

Or samey if overused

We never did feel it was samey when we played, but...

...it's CERTAINLY less same-y than what we had in 5e. Yeah, the fighter is -effective- in reducing enemy hp, but it's all roll to hit AC, do dx+y damage.

Now, THAT is samey...

 

[CapnZapp]

To get back to the original point of the thread (for which I apologize), the discussion of “sameyness” in 4e does point to a substantial difference in design goals between 4e and PF2.

Yes, just because I argue 4E and PF2 share some design philosophy doesn't mean there can't be substantial differences.

For instance, PF2 has a traditional magic system much more akin to 3e or 5e than 4e. (If any subsystem offers hope of breaking out of the locked down paradigm, it would be the experience of the high level spellcaster)

The two areas in which I most regret any 4e similarities to PF2 are:
1) feats
2) magic items

 

[FrozenNorth]

Or samey if overused

It is really difficult to respond to you if you use the same word to mean different things.

You seemed to use “samey” to mean that all classes were built using the same AEDU chassis, and for the most part, they each gained AEDU powers at the same rate. I disagree, but I understand the argument.

Now you are using ”samey” to refer to being able to use the same attack over and over again. This is not conducive to clear communication.

 

[Oofta]

You are dodging the examples from lit/movies etc.

Batman throwing his batarangs to take out multiple opponents. Batman doesn't have magical powers, but he can do really cool things.

4e lets my rogue try this maneuver without being a wizard.

I mean, unless you think Batman has magical powers...

Batman is the most supernatural super hero of them all.

• Powers of divination let him know exactly what gadget or bomb to have for any given situation.
• Supernatural ability to disguise self so nobody ever notices that he's really
  Spoiler

  Bruce Wayne
• Magical gadgets. Probably a utility belt of holding.
• Disguise vehicle. No cop ever thinks to pull the batmobile over
• Power of healing. Okay, this is one all PCs have in 5E*, but still.
• The most powerful ability of all: invulnerable plot armor.

As far as the rest, it doesn't really matter but I don't remember Batman hitting multiple opponents with a single batarang unless it was a magical gizmo special jet powered batarang. But superhero movies, comics and tropes are a step beyond action movies. The Nolan versions of batman come close to being an action movie instead of a superhero movie.

There are some movies/TV that I would not consider in the standard action movie category. Green Arrow and the old Xena TV series are others. I put them all into a slightly different category.

What I think of is more along the lines of James Bond. Could any single individual really do all the stuff he does? Probably not. But certain individuals might be able to at least occasionally. For the most part the gadgets he uses are just on the realm of possible. Or the Die Hard movies. Would the guy survive everything he does? Nah. But if you don't think about it too hard well ... maybe. Except for the 5 minute fight on an jet that's taking off of course.

In any case, now I'm just procrastinating because I need to figure out some details for tomorrow's game and I've got writer's block. Well that and I wanted to poke fun at Batman.

I really don't have anything more to contribute.

*I actually justify that in part as people having "magic aspirin". Basically even mundane races incorporate magical healing into their DNA and they heal magically fast from superficial wounds even if they don't realize it. Healer's kits contain magic bandages that require a feat to use properly. But it's an innate ability that enables a style of game play, not a "power" per se.

 

[Manbearcat]

Yes it does.
So you either played a clan (vampire clan) deck which shared specific clan cards and disciplines (Animalism, Protean, Obfuscation...etc) or you played a themed deck (far-range gun deck, retainer/ally deck, bleed deck, reactionary deck).



*Jyhad. Yes it was a marvellous game with much table politicking and manuevering and from what I heard about Vtes players who also played MtG - they preferred Vtes. I still have my cards. I lost interest after a few of the later expansions and the hunter decks were very OP.

Thanks for the info.

When you think of a sense of "sameyness", from first principles, how do you think this game's structure (rules, decks) interfaces with that concept of sameyness. Not samey? Yes its samey because of x? Yes, its sameyness because of x relates to a sense of sameyness in 4e because of first principles y, z?

 

[Charlaquin]

No cop ever thinks to pull the batmobile over.

I don’t think he’d stop if they tried...

 

[Manbearcat]

15 meters = 49.2 feet
In the video clip (1) the two were not encumbered and (2) there were easily identifiable hand/footholds on (3) a wall they have practised on many times.

Generally most PCs are encumbered (armour, weapons and equipment) but based on posters here many DMs ignore encumbrance. So the std human PC moves 30 feet in 6 seconds and in 5e with the Dash action the movement rate is doubled = 60 feet. Climbing is generally considered difficult terrain which reduces the movement to 30 feet.

The Rogue class may use their Bonus Action to Dash (again, that is another 30 feet) so we are up to climbing 45 feet in 6 seconds while carrying gear with no easily identifiable hand/footholds as reflected in this video. Add Second Storey Work from the Thief Archetype and you're climbing 90 feet in 6 seconds while carrying gear on a wall you haven't practised on with no easily identifiable hand/footholds.

To be clear I'm not disputing that martials might get short-changed compared to real life, I just wouldnt have used climbing as the first or best example. I would have gone on something simple like running.

10-4

Couple things.

1) When I was referring to "D&D historically", I was using that very broadly for late/end game Barbarians/Fighters/Rangers/Rogues. So you're talking about Barbarians, Fighters, Rangers, Rogues in AD&D and certainly Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers in 3.x and 5e (and also non-Thief Rogues). Lots of cases in the history. There are a few exceptions (some Epic Level Handbook stuff in 3.x, but that struggles because of the extreme limits for Fighters and Barbarians when it comes to Skill Points, Thief Rogues in 5e, 4e all).

2) The 5e Thief corner case is actually pretty interesting for the following reasons:

a) Cunning Action and Second Story Work are both online for Thieves by level 3. So by level 3 they're doing truly insane climbing (which is far earlier than any other time in D&D history...4e doesn't even come close to this at Heroic Tier) at 5e's "Local Heroes" Tier (the 4e equivalent of Heroic). Thieves are basically superheroes by level 3!

b) It doesn't scale inherently, but the Mobile Feat (one time investment so a step change) suddenly increases it dramatically by almost 10 meters! This can be taken early on (again, Local Heroes).

c) Barbarians w/ Mobile Feat can reach near parity with our Earthly counterparts by level 5 (Fast Movement + Mobility Feat), but can't increase it beyond that for the rest of their career.

d) Non-Thief Rogues w/ Mobility Feat can exceed our Earthly counterparts by level 4, but can't increase it beyond that for the rest of their career.

e) All PHB Fighters and Rangers (possibly there are resources/subclasses in UA or the sourcebooks that give access to a Climb speed for these Classes?) don't have the PC build aspects available to them to increase their climbing to a level approaching parity with our Earthly counterparts.

---

Those are just a collection of oddities and issues for thematic archetype (superhero Rogues at the earliest tier of play and Fighters and Rangers who can't perform at parity with Earth at end game).

 

[FrogReaver]

It is really difficult to respond to you if you use the same word to mean different things.

You seemed to use “samey” to mean that all classes were built using the same AEDU chassis, and for the most part, they each gained AEDU powers at the same rate. I disagree, but I understand the argument.

Now you are using ”samey” to refer to being able to use the same attack over and over again. This is not conducive to clear communication.

Could be there are multiple facets of sameyness… just sayin

 

[FrogReaver]

There were some powers that were not supernatural. But others? Pull all creatures to you so you can smack them? Whether they can understand your language or not. An aura of weapon damage? Being able to "distract" opponents an avoid opportunity attacks? That was just my fighter. Play a rogue and throw a single dagger that somehow hits multiple opponents and blinds them all?

The list goes on. Add in the cooldown periods and structure similar to vancian casting. I mean if I could hit someone hard enough to stun them, why couldn't I do it again?

That's a side of the issue I don't have a problem with. I just view it as the game giving me a tool to have some narrative control over what's happening in combat. So when I stun them the reason I could is because narratively everything came together for that to happen. Outside the fiction it's me expending 1 use of character power. That doesn't bother me - it does bother a lot of people.