Presitge Class Theory...

[Varianor Abroad]

I would much rather they make base classes interesting enough that you might actually choose to stay with them, and leave prestige classes as they are.

Seconded! (Though if PrCs are in there, the "start at L11 or L21" notion makes a lot of sense to me. I assume that they will be in there.)

 

[Merlion]

Seconded! (Though if PrCs are in there, the "start at L11 or L21" notion makes a lot of sense to me. I assume that they will be in there.)

Yes. In current D&D prestige classes are perhaps rather a no-brainer for most classes, but thats mostly the base classes faults. And some prestige class archtypes I wouldn't mind seeing integrated into OPTIONS for the base classes...but not like "talent trees." I dont want every wizard to have to choose to be an "Elemental Mage" or a "Summoner" or the like. I want to be able to be a Wizard, and have some options in those areas, but also have the option to just stay a very generalist character.

In AE, as you of course know, base classes have enough oomph that choosing to go into a prestige class is a real choice...but its there to be chosen.

 

[breschau]

Yes. In current D&D prestige classes are perhaps rather a no-brainer for most classes, but thats mostly the base classes faults. And some prestige class archtypes I wouldn't mind seeing integrated into OPTIONS for the base classes...but not like "talent trees." I dont want every wizard to have to choose to be an "Elemental Mage" or a "Summoner" or the like. I want to be able to be a Wizard, and have some options in those areas, but also have the option to just stay a very generalist character.

In AE, as you of course know, base classes have enough oomph that choosing to go into a prestige class is a real choice...but its there to be chosen.

I'd agree that you shouldn't have to choose to be a particular type, and that's not how talent trees work. In Saga, it's more like they're options there if you want them, but, there are also general abilities to choose from. Essentially you could mix and match the bits you liked, as long as you met the prerequisites.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

As we've heard Saga and Tome of Battle are previews of 4th Edition. In Saga classes have access to 20 some talents spread out over 3-5 talent trees. More potent talents have prerequisite weaker talents from the same tree...

Something interesting occurred to me looking over Saga. The Jedi is split into three classes, a core and two prestiges. The first prestige, Jedi Knight, requires the character be 7th-level, and the second, Jedi Master, requires the character be 12th-level...

With all the talk of Heroic (1st through 10th), Paragon (11th-20th), and Epic (21st-30th) style characters, and the "functional equivalent" of prestige classes...

I'm thinking the new "prestige" system will essentially be advanced talent trees tied to Paragon status, and even more powerful "prestige" classes will be tied to Epic status. Doing this would greatly reduce the need for complicated multi-classing rules and allow even single class characters to advance in interesting ways (by picking appropriate Paragon, and later Epic Talent Trees).

I think you're being lead astray a little by the nature of the Jedi class here. The Jedi class is a more general class than the Jedi organization. A character can become a Jedi Knight without a single level in the Jedi class. The Jedi prestige classes in SWSE represent the membership and training in the organization while the class does not.

However, you seem to be on the right track.

I'm pretty confident, from what I've read, that prestige classes will not change too much in 4E with the exception that much of the prestige classes will be folded in to the Talent Trees of particular classes.

For example, there would not need to be a Bear Warrior (or Frenzied Berzerker) prestige class if the abilities of a Bear Warrior (or FB) were in a talent tree that any barbarian could take. I think that the Bear Warrior (or FB) was one of the examples mentioned by the design team in the context of changing the need for prestige classes.

There will probably be talent trees that PCs have access to based solely on race. And there may very well be talent trees that are based solely on whether or not the PCs are of Paragon or Epic status. It seems to make sense. One would have to look at the design of the talents, though. The talents would have to be designed so that a 10th level character that has a paragon talent is not incredibly more powerful than a 9th level character, or even a 10th level character who opted not to take a paragon talent.

Further, the recent blog about multi-classing included a ranger/cleric/wizard, covering three of the four roles. If you restrict multi-classing to new roles only (i.e. you have fighter levels, so you can only multi-class into a leader, striker, or controller class), that would limit the rule set to four separate classes.

That's an interesting idea.

 

[Reaper Steve]

I would much rather they make base classes interesting enough that you might actually choose to stay with them, and leave prestige classes as they are.

I think I'd like to see the opposite. I think will be incredibly difficult to make a base class appealing through all levels if prestige classes exist. Maybe instead, the base classes could just go to 10...and then you must choose a prestige class. Could be the same at 20th as well.

Doesn't d20 Modern do something like this?

 

[tlantl]

You know I was thinking along those lines about the new method of multi classing. I don't have Saga and didn't know how the classes were structured. Now that I understand how that works it does make some considerable sense.

I'm trying to remain calm and level headed about this game but it does seem to be looking like it could be worth anticipating. I loath the multi class system in 3e.

 

[Merlion]

I think I'd like to see the opposite. I think will be incredibly difficult to make a base class appealing through all levels if prestige classes exist.

Monte Cook did it in Arcana Evolved.

 

[Reaper Steve]

Monte Cook did it in Arcana Evolved.

I think I better check that out...I like what I've read about it's magic system as well (well, at least as far as Vancian system goes.)

 

[breschau]

I think you're being lead astray a little by the nature of the Jedi class here. The Jedi class is a more general class than the Jedi organization. A character can become a Jedi Knight without a single level in the Jedi class. The Jedi prestige classes in SWSE represent the membership and training in the organization while the class does not.

True. It was more of a general framework/idea than a perfect example.

However, you seem to be on the right track.

Thank you.

I'm pretty confident, from what I've read, that prestige classes will not change too much in 4E with the exception that much of the prestige classes will be folded in to the Talent Trees of particular classes.

The impression I have is the opposite. Could you point me to your sourse?

By it's very nature, folding the prestiges into advanced talent trees available at Paragon/Epic tiers, you are eliminating what we know of as prestige classes. You won't have to multi-class, no caster level issues, no xp penalties, to long planning of feat trees and other classes to meet the prerequisites for some presitges. That would all be gone in a flash.

That's an interesting idea.

Thank you, again.

I'm not sure about it, but I'm starting to think that WotC might even go a step further and fold the classes into talent trees and use the roles for what we know now as classes. Look at the Jedi Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel from Revised. Compare that with Saga. They're all talent trees. Why? There was no reason to do that, except it's streamlined and takes up less space. The Fringer's gone too, folded into a talent tree of the Scout.

Like anything, it could work if they did it well.

 

[Merlion]

I think I better check that out...I like what I've read about it's magic system as well (well, at least as far as Vancian system goes.)

It still has certain Vancian elements, but I like it for the most part. Aside from some of Monte's personal design/flavour preferences. The basic mechanics are awesome.