Prestige Class woes

[Greg K]

Oh, I forgot. I also did a barbarian variant- the urban barbarian. I

It might sound odd, but Monte said the whole point of the barbarian is that he fights with passion/rage rather than formal trainig of the fighter. Since I saw no reason an urban person couldn't fight with passion/rage rather than formal training, I created this barbarian variant. He would be the big tough guy who spent their time learning to fight in the school of hardknocks on docks and in both taverns and alleyways. He is good at soaking up damage and just use pure strength and rage in combat. Think the big biker types in cinema, the stereotypical bouncer and the American from Van Damme's Bloodsport, but put them in a fanatsy urban environment.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Coupla things:

First off, I completely agree with Psion on this issue.

Second,

I wish that, like substitution levels, prestige classes were not "classes" but rather templates.
...
That way, you could add multiple templates to customize your character even more. You could have, for example, Loremaster and Archmage templates added on to your sorcerer or wizard, which would provide benefits at certain levels.

Except, of course, that this is already how PrCs like the loremaster and archmage, and in fact almost all the caster PrCs, work. You give up a burn feat or two, some bonus metamagic feats, and familiar progression for the class benefits. I don't see the difference between this and the PrC concept as is.

I like prestige classes. I think that at their core, they're a good mechanic for basically one thing - extra specialisation.

They're a way of packaging up positives and negatives so they're (more or less) balanced.

However, I think they need some changes:

I hate the "you must have x ranks in y skill and 5 useless feats to qualify for this prc"

Why? Because they require oddball metagame knowledge to function.

For instance - why should a PrC require skill RANKS as opposed to total skill mod?

Or classes which require toughness. Take 3rd level characters PC A and PC B. PC A has a con of 13 and the toughness feat. PC B has a con of 14.

Assuming the same hit dice rolls, they've both got the exact same amount of hitpoints. But PC B wouldn't qualify for dwarven defender (for instance).

Or endurance. Or skill focus. Or whatever.

I sorta disagree with this, though I entirely agree with this sentiment:

In short - in my next campaign, I'm going to let people qualify for PrC's in a much more organic manner.

I don't see why those particular 3 feats are necessary to the class, so I'll replace that requirement with "you must have one agility-focussed feat and two toughness-focussed feats".

Finally of course, I'll stick to the rule that a PrC requires GM approval before you enter it. If your PC seems, to me, to fit, you're in. If not - forget about it.

The entire point is that things like skill ranks, feats, and alignment DO have an in-game character of sorts. Toughness represents the fact that your character is, well, tougher. 5 ranks in a skill represents time invested in learning the skill. Alignment? Race? Those are pretty important for a class like Dwarven Defender, unless you change the flavor of the PrC entirely.

The thing that I have a problem with is that the requirements-based nature of PrCs means that players have to plan their PCs along a particular path from Day One, which I think is pretty ridiculous. Do you focus on Hide and Jump in order to join the ranks of the Shadowdancers, a bunch of folk you may never have heard of? Do you pick up Endurance because you're a dwarf and you know abou this neat technique called "defensive stance"? It seems a bit weird to me, and I wonder if there's an alternative means of dealing with it beyond fudging the requirements on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Zoatebix]

Thank you! I've been meaning to look at that book - but I recall that some reviews I read indicated that though it was well ballanced internally, it did not "play well" with core d20 fantasy or 3rd party stuff, especially with regards to traditional D&D heavy armor.

Still, Swashblucking Adventures is something to think about. Skull and Bones looks so pretty, though! Why must so many things compete for so little money!


Back to the topic at hand - I agree with Joshua that the niche prestige classes fill is getting smaller and smaller - especially with the many freer-form class-based systems that seem to be coming out for d20 (Grim Tales comes immediately to mind, as does DrSpunj's excellent system). I keep waffling between allowing PrCs and working around them with "point-based" elements and/or an expanded feat list in my next game and in my writing. One of the best parts about the Book of Iron Might, I felt, was that it used absolutely no PrCs...
-George

 

[Geron Raveneye]

The thing that I have a problem with is that the requirements-based nature of PrCs means that players have to plan their PCs along a particular path from Day One, which I think is pretty ridiculous. Do you focus on Hide and Jump in order to join the ranks of the Shadowdancers, a bunch of folk you may never have heard of? Do you pick up Endurance because you're a dwarf and you know abou this neat technique called "defensive stance"? It seems a bit weird to me, and I wonder if there's an alternative means of dealing with it beyond fudging the requirements on a case-by-case basis.

You could rewrite the skill requirements and make them skill tests with a particular difficult DC instead. This could give rise to a quick roleplaying scene, where the character that wants to get into a certain prestige class has to pass a test on the skills required in that prestige class, and if he manages, he's in. Like instead of telling the player "Your wizard needs Knowledge (Arcana) with 8 ranks to get into prestige class X", you could say "Your wizard stands before the ruling council of the Order of X, getting tested on his Knowledge of arcane matters. Roll a Knowledge (Arcana) check with a DC of 25. If you make it, you're in. If not, come back at the next New Moon and try again."
Don't know how to apply something similar for Feats, though...I guess those are a bit harder to "check" than skills.

 

[DaveMage]

This idea goes well with the "character development templates" I've wanted to do for over a year now. Mind if I catalog your idea away with my own? I may someday take some time to work on my own idea and could see including your idea in the same product.

Sure. Take it and run with it. (Just make it cool. )

 

[DaveMage]

Second,
Except, of course, that this is already how PrCs like the loremaster and archmage, and in fact almost all the caster PrCs, work. You give up a burn feat or two, some bonus metamagic feats, and familiar progression for the class benefits. I don't see the difference between this and the PrC concept as is.

The difference is that with templates you could have benefits from multiple templates at the same time, rather than go 1 level at a time. In addition, you are still a sorcerer or wizard, rather than an archmage or loremaster, and you do not have to have *all* the elements of the class, nor wait for several levels of prestige class to get the feature you want. Plus, some spell-casting prestige classes require you give up spell progression at various levels.

I have yet to see any "special ability" for a prestige spellcasting class that was more valuable than advancing in the base spell progression - especially for sorcerers. The instant a sorcerer gives up a level of advancement, they fall 2 levels behind wizards of the same level with regard to highest spell level possible. No thanks.

 

[MerricB]

My feeling is that I like having options.

Base classes, Prestige classes, Templates, Multiclassing, Substitution levels...

One approach doesn't provide everything, and so being able to choose between them as appropriate is wonderful.

Prestige Classes have the advantage of being easy to look at and know what they're for, as well as often being fairly broad in application.

OTOH, Substitution levels are far more specific and targeted, but nonetheless excellent for their purpose.

That I can combine these approaches just makes me happier.

Cheers!

 

[Sargon the Kassadian]

I don't have a lot of third party stuff, so can someone describe how Substitution Levels and class templates would work?
Me and my friend came up with the idea to just give the characters an ability tailored to their character every couple of levels.
Ex. Romanesque Cleric with a shield and gladius got 1st level ability to eke an extra +1 AC out of his shield.
This eleminates any hardened rules, which may be bad or good, depending on your opinion, but gives you great freedom to customize and develop your character according to how you play/roleplay him.

 

[Sargon the Kassadian]

Double dipping is fun!

 

[GSHamster]

I think that if more Abilities could be taken as feats (and characters could take a few more feats), a lot of the need for PrCs goes away, leaving a lot more variety that can be handled in the base class.

In many ways, PrCs can be thought of as high-level feat chains.