Prestige Class woes

[PJ-Mason]

Sigh. I swore since this thread popped up i wasn't gonna read it and for damn sure wasn't going to post on it......yeah right. I was fooling myself. These posts are going to kill me one of these days. They do help me refine my arguments, though.

the Prestige class is an inarticulate rpg tool. In fact it causes more grief than it adds to the gaming experience. I'll even go so far as to the use the official term...El Sucko!!
It doesn't even come close to the accuracy that feats, multiclassing, and even templates provide for creating a unique character that individualizes your characters. Because prestige classes are static, they are invasive as all get out, and they do a crappy job of individualizing a charracter.



They do sell books, however, so thats why the persist.

Some are just put together badly, they don't even bother me so much. Its the ones like Guild Thief and Harper (anything) that irratates me and, in my view, ippotomizes (sp?) what is so ridiculus about prestige classes. The Harpers are not a drilled group of troops who are all the same. In fact, i don't think any of the harpers i've read about (in sourcebooks or novels) even fit any of the prestige classes they have. Hell, the Harpers themselves can't agree on who or what a Harper is. So why do the prestige classes exist? Because they sell books.

Guild Thief. please. Although its pretty much the same argument as above, the Guild Thief is so damned generalized that its barely different than the Rogue in the first place! You can already do it with the class(es) available!Which means it just doesn't need to exist. Wanna join the thieves guild? Go to them (if you can find them), pay your dues, and join up. They are not going to ignore you because you have 5 ranks of move silent instead of 6. Especially if you have other useful abilities that the requirements of a prestige class can't ever allow for. So why does it exist? Because it makes money, not because its needed. Imagine a Thieves Guild campaign where everyone works for the thieves guild and so everyone gets levels in the prestige class. Now not only is anyone now NOT unique or individualized, they actually begin to look quite a alike. I just don't see Thieves Guilds like that. At all. What happens if you are already in the Thieves guild when the prestige class comes out? Are you suddenly kicked out of the Guild, or do you get handed the "Well you don't NEED the prestige class to be part of the guild, a lot of the guild members don't have it!" bunk. So why the heck do they exist then??!! To sell books.

Then there are the prestige classes that are wrapped around a game mechanic that isn't presented in the core classes. Such as the Assassin's Death Attack. Of course if you take out that one class feature and the class implodes. Add it as a Rogue Special Ability and the Assassin Prestige class becomes a rogue with the poison resistance feat. Crap prestige class. Cool Rogue ability.

Or there is the Spellsword prestige class that if you make its channel ability into a feat, you don't need the prestige class......Oh wait, they already did that....its called Arcane Strike.

The Weapons Master.....so getting weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, and all of the other feats for mastering a weapon doesn't already make me a weapons master? Sez you, bub!!

Prestige Classes exist because:

1) They make money

2) Players/customers have been conviced that if they don't have a Guild Thieves prestige class they aren't a Guild Thief. Even if there is no such a specific animal.

3) They make money

 

[Saeviomagy]

Or there is the Spellsword prestige class that if you make its channel ability into a feat, you don't need the prestige class......Oh wait, they already did that....its called Arcane Strike.

Guess again. Channel spell can do far more than arcane strike. And then theres the armour wearing thing...

The Weapons Master.....so getting weapon focus, weapon specialization, improved critical, and all of the other feats for mastering a weapon doesn't already make me a weapons master? Sez you, bub!!

Prestige Classes exist because:

1) They make money

2) Players/customers have been conviced that if they don't have a Guild Thieves prestige class they aren't a Guild Thief. Even if there is no such a specific animal.

3) They make money

4) Some introduce genuinely new mechanics which would be unfeasable as a feat or feat chain due to the flawed design of the existing base classes.

 

[Psion]

It doesn't even come close to the accuracy that feats, multiclassing, and even templates provide for creating a unique character that individualizes your characters. Because prestige classes are static, they are invasive as all get out, and they do a crappy job of individualizing a charracter.

Word has it that hammers are poor screwdrivers. But that doesn't make them a bad tool, just a bad tool for what you want to do with it. Prestige classes aren't for little tweaks. That's what feats and skills are for.

Prestige classes can, however, do things that multiclassing and feats can't do. (And if you do it right, they can be flexible enough to be a great individualizing tool; see Masters of Arms.)

But really, the point of prestige classes is to bring a campaign concept to life or be one stop shopping for a certain concept better than those tools could do.

They do sell books, however, so thats why the persist.

And they sell books because people like them and find them useful. Can't have that.

Some are just put together badly,

That they are. But have you ever heard, don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

Or there is the Spellsword prestige class that if you make its channel ability into a feat, you don't need the prestige class......Oh wait, they already did that....its called Arcane Strike.

You could, but that still wouldn't make the suboptimal multiclassing situation any better.

The Weapons Master...

Sucks. Go buy MASTERS OF ARMS if you want a specialized master of one weapon.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Perhaps related to my discipline IRL, but I don't think it needs be secret techinques at all, and you need not think of all the organizations as secret cabals or assassin's guilds. It merely need be a specialized area of knowledge.

Isn't that what PrCs do most of, if not all the time? Let you do stuff that base classes don't--a PrC focuses on one special thing that the PrC represents enhanced skill in?

 

[Li Shenron]

How about the 3 level wayfarer guide (from T&B I think)? It's just a little boost to the teleport spells. There isn't much more to add to such a class so why pad it out to 5 or (an insane) 10 levels when everything the class needs fits neatly into 3 levels?

Although I've never seen it played, I am quite fine with the Wayfarer Guide from Tome & Blood. Now I have to say that I really don't remember exactly what it gives you, I vaguely remember it improves the details about teleportation spells (chance of errors, deviations from inteded target, weight limit, etc...). If there's a progression in the class abilities, or a sense of consequence, then I think that having a prestige class for them is better than having a feat (a feat chain would also work, but you can have much less feats than levels after all).

As I mentioned earlier, those FR prestige classes have very little need to be classes, plus they don't give unique abilities and they don't fulfill a clear concept either.

 

[PJ-Mason]

Guess again. Channel spell can do far more than arcane strike. And then theres the armour wearing thing...

For which there are also either feats (from different sources) and even magical abilities that can be given to equipment to ignore armor penalties or channel spells...sooo....again, no need for a crappy prestige class.

4) Some introduce genuinely new mechanics which would be unfeasable as a feat or feat chain due to the flawed design of the existing base classes.

I haven't seen any prestige class that couldn't be handled by feats or multi-classing, or even at least a feat chain or template.

 

[hong]

the Prestige class is an inarticulate

Ah, sweet irony.

 

[PJ-Mason]

Word has it that hammers are poor screwdrivers. But that doesn't make them a bad tool, just a bad tool for what you want to do with it. Prestige classes aren't for little tweaks. That's what feats and skills are for.

Prestige classes can, however, do things that multiclassing and feats can't do. (And if you do it right, they can be flexible enough to be a great individualizing tool; see Masters of Arms.)

Master of Arms??!! I have that book and its probably the very same book that pushed me over the edge as far as prestige classes are concerned. Each of it's prestige classes looked the same. Feat, feat, feat, feat. Then a list of feat/class abilities that you can choose from each level to use with a specific weapon. That book proves my point! Those Prestige classes are utterly useless. The very writer of the book suggest using all the class specific abilites as optional feats for for other classes. Like Fighter.

But really, the point of prestige classes is to bring a campaign concept to life or be one stop shopping for a certain concept better than those tools could do..

LOL. Because, Lord knows we've never been able to manage campaign concepts before prestige classes. Since when have gamers been bred not to have their own imaginations?
Again, we just totally disagree on the value of prestige classes as specilization tools. They are useless or worse, IMO.

And they sell books because people like them and find them useful. Can't have that..

Well people think they need them anyway.
Besides, i am not boycotting game studios. If people want them, buy them. But if people are asking about other people's opinions about prestige classes, i am going to chime in my opinions.
People's ooh's and ahh's about the 8th prestige class book per month that come out reminds me of ravenous Magic the Gathering junkies that'd shred you if were in line in front of them when they are trying to get to the newest card set that just came out. Prestige Classes are WOTC's newest rpg-crack.

That they are. But have you ever heard, don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch..

Hah. more like one or two good apples getting crushed by a mass of rotting ones!

You could, but that still wouldn't make the suboptimal multiclassing situation any better..

Suboptimal sez you, freedom without restriction sez I. Prestige classes restrict character concepts and for my money, come come anywhere near close to doing what is credited them to be for.

Sucks. Go buy MASTERS OF ARMS if you want a specialized master of one weapon.

OR i could just take those class feats in Master of Arms with my fighter feats and NOT take a super-bland, nearly non-existent prestige class and be the master of the weapon anyway. Jusr like the writer of that book suggests.

 

[PJ-Mason]

Ah, sweet irony.

Well since i don't spend 15 hours a day online, or have ten thousand posts, i'm usually in a rush to get my posts out before i have to get back to real life. I don't post nearly as much as iwould if i had the time. Mistakes will happen.

 

[hong]

For which there are also either feats (from different sources) and even magical abilities that can be given to equipment to ignore armor penalties or channel spells...sooo....again, no need for a crappy prestige class.

If I only used what I "needed", I'd be living in a cave somewhere.

You know, I might have said this before.