Prestige Classes - A Crutch?

[BluSpecs]

I'm not trying to be a Troll here but, Does anyone else feel that prestige classes are a crutch for the less than creative?

I'm not saying that anyone who uses a prestige class is a brainless hack, but it seems that they are the easy way out when your putting a character togather. To me it's like making a photo-copy character.

I've been playing D&D for years and when 3.0 came out they were my least favorite feature. To this day I've never used one and don't intend to. I create my characters using the base clases and multi classing to fit the vision I have for my character.

I'm not saying I'm some super creative artist either, I just don't see why prestige classes are so appealing when 9 times out of 10 you can achive the desired effects using base classes and a little creativity.

What do you all think?

Fire away!


PS - I realize that the game is all about personal preference and whats fun to the individual , but I'm just looking for some reasons why people like them.

 

[johnsemlak]

I think you might be right if you view prestige classes as simply bonus crunch (abilities) that a player receives on attaining the class.

However, if we look at PrCs as they are intended to be (note the word 'prestige'), they are often a select group of powerful individuals in the campaign. So they can be more than just a power-class, they can be a group of individuals that have a real role in developing the campaing.

Admittedly, I think the latter is not exploited nearly enough by most people who use PrCs (myself included)

On another note, PrCs provide a very useful sort of goal for players to achieve. Again, if this can be not not merely by achieving a certain BAB or acquiring certain feats, but by completing certain quests and the like, it can make the prestige class much more interesting.

 

[AeroDm]

I would agree. Sort of.

I don't even think most PrCs are taken/designed for a concept, but rather to pimp out some aspect of a character. Look at every archer PrC and explain to me what the 'concept' of it is. They are all ways to make archery even more powerful- often too powerful.

My main grip on PrCs is that they are supposed to make you more powerful in one area by lacking in another (overall making you slightly more powerful in general), but rarely do you lack anywhere. Keeping with the archer PrC example, they generally lose fighter feats to gain 5 or 6 class features that are all more pwoerful than any feat. There is no loss.

I also try to avoid PrCs and have recently taken to the midn that prestige organizations should exist that don't give classes, but rather only give benefits. In game RP benefits, equipment, connections, et al. If players decide they don't want to be in the organization, cut their losses, lose their benefits, move on. If people bail on organization based PrCs, you have a world of trouble.

Sorry for getting OT, but in short, I agree.

 

[Will]

I disagree in some cases... I think it's just another way to look for something cool to distinguish your character. Granted, it might not always succeed..

Well, it's a mixed bag.

The eldritch knight and mystic theurge are basically fixes for core problems with the game.

Duellist is a nifty idea to give some specific abilities for a type of fighter, beyond what a fighter normally can do. I don't think it works well, but it's a good idea.

The others are either new directions for a character (dragon disciple), or essentially a specialist with some new stuff to work with (archmage, loremaster).

Personally, I wish more game companies would produce additional _core_ classes. I think that is more interesting than PrCs.

 

[Psion]

I'm not trying to be a Troll here but, Does anyone else feel that prestige classes are a crutch for the less than creative?

I'm not saying that anyone who uses a prestige class is a brainless hack, but it seems that they are the easy way out when your putting a character togather. To me it's like making a photo-copy character.

I'm always dubious when someone calls something a "crutch." It's like you are passing judgement on someone that they aren't doing enough work. To me, gaming is a leisure activity.

Anything that helps you is a boon, not a bane. Are some prestige classes essentially packaged kernels of character concepts? Yes. That's not a bad thing.

I don't think it's like photocopying a character any more than Dartangan is the same as Athos, Porthos, and Aramis. They all have certain skills and aspirations in common, but have their own personalities and spins. Likewise, your prestige class characters can come from different backgrounds, emphasize different skills and feats. And have different personalities.

I'm not saying I'm some super creative artist either, I just don't see why prestige classes are so appealing when 9 times out of 10 you can achive the desired effects using base classes and a little creativity.

If you can acheive it with base classes, it shouldn't be a prestige class.

That said, I disagree with your assertion that you could do 9 out of 10 PrCs with a base class.

 

[BSF]

Well, I will speak as somebody that not only uses PrC's, but has created a PrC for my character in the game I play in. Now, if that doesn't spike on your munchkin radar, nothing will.

Most book PrC's are sadly bland and lacking in Prestige. They are geared toward providing a one-class-fits-all-campaigns approach, which is a shame. There aer some good PrC's that work nicely and fit into my DM'ing style "as-is", but they are not easily found. I have a few PrC's for my campaigns that explicitly focus on my game world. These PrC's tend to focus the character in a very limited way (so far, future PrC's might serve a different purpose) and serve to make the PC stand out from everyone else in their specific field. Could the abilities of the PrC be reached through any other means? Hmm, probably not. Are they heavy crunch that makes them too tasty? That is a maybe.

Certainly, one of them is very desirable if you want to fight evil. The class makes a Paladin even better at smiting. Of course, you don't get any Paladin spells, you don't improve your special mount, you don't improve your lay on hands, and you give up good Fort saves in favor of Will. So, there is a trade off. The class is attainable by anyone with the right skills and personality. I have built NPC's with the same PrC off of a fighter and off a cleric, just to show the players that it can be done. There is a trade off to be able to smite so often. In a game where you are fighting all evil creatures, that would be great. Especially if you have other people in the party that can cover for your deficits.

In the game I play in, I created a PrC for when my Bard personally witnessed a portion of the Song of Creation. I built the PrC around that concept with a few little gimmicks that he gets for that. He is unique in that regard and the gimmicks are not available in any multi-class progression that I know of. Dropping my BAB to 1/2 and eliminating good REF saves has not been good for combat optimization. As well, I do not have access to the higher level Bardic Music affects. I have different Mystical Music. (See the Enchiridion of Mystical Music for things like the Ode to Wellness and others.) But, I like the flavor of the PrC, as does my DM. It also gives me yet another hook to intrigue the other players, other characters, and NPC's. It's fun.

So, while I agree that a lot of PrC's just seem to be a fast-track to crunch, they can be used to create very flavorful PC's. You just need to create them within the context of the campaign and make them somewhat unique.

 

[jmucchiello]

Anything that helps you is a boon, not a bane. Are some prestige classes essentially packaged kernels of character concepts? Yes. That's not a bad thing.

That should get posted to every thread that complains about too many PrCs, feats, monsters, spells, whatever. Well said.

 

[Henry]

I'm not trying to be a Troll here but, Does anyone else feel that prestige classes are a crutch for the less than creative?

"Prestige classes are a crutch. You should not use them!"

"Then hand me that splatbook and call me a cripple!"

(with both thanks and apologies to KidCthulhu)

Seriously, I like their concept because they cover some of the holes that the base classes leave in some character concepts. I sure can design a swashbuckler using fighter and rogue, but he's going to have an armor class so poor that he's going to get slapped around like an extra in a Kung Fu movie.

The alternative is to work with the DM to change out some class features to make a better alternative to better fit the character I want, but why do that when someone has created something 90% of the way there?

 

[BSF]

Cool - more posts while I typed.

OK, reading Psion's post I can see that my post may sound a little harsh. Overall, I agree with Psion. Perhaps I should be looking at book PrC's as frameworks that I need to develop within my game world. I actually do that, but I should have said that instead of giving a blanket reference to them being "bland and lacking". The real problem I have with published PrC's has a lot more to do with how the players approach them rather than how they were written. As an author, you are probably going to need to generalize a PrC to present a little flavor and hope the DM can customize it from there.

Psion - thanks for giving me a little different perspective to spin off of.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm always dubious when someone calls something a "crutch." It's like you are passing judgement on someone that they aren't doing enough work. To me, gaming is a leisure activity.

Y'know, this is a point I feel is lost on too many gamers. Way too often we see rants posted about how this or that is "too easy" or that a "real gamer" would take the time to create everything whole cloth. Some critics of monster books are who come to mind - "well," they sniff, "I never use monster books; they are a crutch for those without imagination - I craft every monster I use from scratch!" Good for them. I have other things to do with my time. Between working, spending time with family and loved ones, having a social life outside of gaming, and generally living life, many of us simply don't have the time or inclination to add another level of complexity to a leisure activity.

Now, to the main point of the thread - I agree that many Prestige Classes could easily be duplicated by judicious choice of class, multiclassing, skills, and feats. I've said that from the beginning, when an explosion of Prestige Classes hit the net and just about everything being published had a number of Prestige Classes. Many prefer the perceived variety that comes with using a Prestige Class instead of simply sticking with a core class or multiclassing. If that's how they like to play, more power to them.