Prestige Classes - A Crutch?

[mmadsen]

I'm not trying to be a Troll here but, Does anyone else feel that prestige classes are a crutch for the less than creative?

What is your definition of crutch? And what helpful materials would not be a crutch then?

I'm not saying that anyone who uses a prestige class is a brainless hack, but it seems that they are the easy way out when your putting a character togather.

And why is that bad?

I've been playing D&D for years and when 3.0 came out they were my least favorite feature. To this day I've never used one and don't intend to. I create my characters using the base clases and multi classing to fit the vision I have for my character.

That would be fine if all classes were extremely flexible.

I'm not saying I'm some super creative artist either, I just don't see why prestige classes are so appealing when 9 times out of 10 you can achive the desired effects using base classes and a little creativity.

Most of the character concepts presented as Prestige Classes are interesting -- but they don't need to be Prestige Classes mechanically at all; a few new Feats would work at least as well.

Interestingly, many Core Classes probably don't need to be separate classes at all (Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger) either -- but they would be perfect candidates for Prestige Classes at higher levels, where they pick up spells, etc. and change mechanically.

 

[Dirigible]

My life is a crotch! ~~ Bert. Oh wait, we're talking aobut crutches?

Joshua Dyal basically sums up my views on the matter. There are quite a few extra, concept specific base classes like Knight, Swashbuckler, Flying Doomninja and so forth floating around out there, and there are times I would have given my someone's right leg for a class that fit a concept, rather than trying to bodge it together from levels of various other classes.

But I mean come on..."Archmage"? the concept here seems to be "Better Wizard" unless I've missed something.

Arch - Leader.
Mage - (in gamer terminology) Wizard.

Yes?

 

[Desdichado]

Joshua Randall basically sums up my views on the matter. There are quite a few extra, concept specific base classes like Knight, Swashbuckler, Flying Doomninja and so forth floating around out there, and there are times I would have given my someone's right leg for a class that fit a concept, rather than trying to bodge it together from levels of various other classes.

Presumably you mean Joshua Dyal since I posted a post that says something very similar to what you said and Joshua Randall hasn't posted on this thread at all.

It's surprising that I'm getting some support in this thread, because I was fairly thoroughly taken to task for suggesting this on the other thread I mentioned above.

 

[Dirigible]

Presumably you mean Joshua Dyal since I posted a post that says something very similar to what you said and Joshua Randall hasn't posted on this thread at all.

That sounds plausible.
This is what I get for posting under the influence of spinning.

 

[Henry]

It's surprising that I'm getting some support in this thread, because I was fairly thoroughly taken to task for suggesting this on the other thread I mentioned above.

It depends on who you ask and what day it is.

 

[Desdichado]

It depends on who you ask and what day it is.

Apparently! Which means I should wait a few days before I ask for opinions on the Rokugan Ninja vs. the AU Unfettered since I'm still smarting a bit from that last thread.

 

[Psion]

It's surprising that I'm getting some support in this thread, because I was fairly thoroughly taken to task for suggesting this on the other thread I mentioned above.

If it makes you feel any better, I thought you were slightly off target, just not greatly enough to motivate me to respond with my position in any way that is different from the position I have already posted.

Let's just say I am not a big fan of new core classes unless they are really well justified.

 

[Desdichado]

Let's just say I am not a big fan of new core classes unless they are really well justified.

Maybe I should go back to the other thread for this discussion, but out of curiousity, what is a good enough justification to you? Most of my justification is based on flavor, really. But I do think there are a very few glaring holes in terms of universal archetypes in the D&D core rules.

 

[Numion]

I'm not trying to be a Troll here but, Does anyone else feel that prestige classes are a crutch for the less than creative?

We gotta have a hierarchy:

Those who play PnP RPGs have more imagination than those who play CRPGs.

Those who play PnP RPGs without PrCs have more imagination than those who play with them.

.. ad nauseum ..



Me, I just like having something to aim for in the higher levels. It makes belonging to a clan of badass archers more rewarding than just hearing the DM say it.

The character I play is defined by both my imagination and the sheet of paper that it's written on. If both my imagination and the paper jive well, it makes for a more intresting play.

 

[ciaran00]

Are you saying that I should just lump more nifty abilities on top of a character for roleplay without any concern for how much more powerful it might make that one character over the others?

Not at all. Given that Upper_Krust's marvelous CR system has provided a system to compare and value D&D abilities, I can directly add CR modifiers to my players' levels. My point is that the availability of a roleplaying option, in my opinion, defeats the idea of the player coming up with something unique for his character through roleplaying. Though your mileage may be different, my observation has been that PrCs truly are a crutch for character-less characters.

In my game, not only are these generic PrC capabilities available as additions to a player's repertoire (you come across a village that has an odd way of training its youths in bladefighting. If you stayed, you can learn it too), I have a Grafting skill that lets player dissect monsters and change themselves biologically. The thing is, THEY come up with and try to justify to me as to what benefits they should/can reap. This is vastly different from me offering them a complement of things they can pick and choose (without much thinking involved).

But, I like the fact that I can put together a PrC and then dangle it out there in front of the character and say "You want these neat abilities? Roleplay it. Find a way to get them. It's just going to cost you in this manner. If it's really the direction the character would go, let's do it."

The PrC mechanic fails to accomodate the transformation demands required by my Dark Sun game. It's cool that you can do that for your game... many DMs don't go to the trouble, and instead rely on a PrC selection in the same capacity as they do on a selection of core classes.

ciaran