Prestige Classes - A Crutch?

[Scion]

At CRs appropriate for their level, a character will usually make his "good" save. But it's not a gimme. A multiclassed character, though...

There's a character in my group whose is a multiclassed Cleric/Warmashal/Contemplative with the Mysticism domain (a prestige domain granting a bonus to all saves equal to your charisma modifier). His only "bad" save would be reflex.... except his has the Warmarshall ability that grants a bonus to everyone's reflex save equal to his charisma modifier (this stacks with the Paladin/Mysticism bonus). And his charisma modifier is oh so high! In effect, he has *no* bad save. each one is so high that he can't fail except on a roll of 1. He's next to invulnerable to magic. Yes, I think this is a serious problem.


- Z a c h

So he has good saves? Big deal. It looks like he designed this character in such a way as for that to happen. Plus if he has a really high charisma he will be lacking elsewhere, along with the fact that those prestige classes hit him in other places.

He has high saves, not high SR. If he makes every save 100% of the time good for him, that was probably one of his goals. So very many spells dont allow for saves though, or saves still have some other effect, or some other part of his character took a hit in order to get him there. Let him enjoy what he has.

Getting high saving throws is one of the very lesser evils of the prc/multiclassing system. There are easy fixes to the latter, and as to the former.. It looks like a very high level character (I dont know what warmarshal is, sounds pretty cool, but contemplative requires a min level of 11) and that character is good at a few things. Nothing wrong with that.

How would you feel about a paladin who had a cloak of resistance +5 and cha as his highest stat by far? Same situation, nearly unbeatable saves in most cases.

Sorry if this came off rude or something I dont know anything about the rest of the character obviously, it just seems like a complaint that a character was designed to so something special, but might get shut down punitively at some point (like saying the two bonuses overlap rather than stack) and that bothers me quite a bit If the pc goes his entire carear to be good something, let them be good at that thing.

 

[diaglo]

Luckily, from my point of view, they're still in the DMG, and still optional.

just wait until Sunday. when i hit you up with my PrC for Fiddle.

 

[Desdichado]

A lot of the points made in this thread echo what was said in this thread that I started right here. Let me summarize (and expand) upon some relevant opinions of mine, many of them in that thread already, others more specific to prestige classes.

• Many character concepts are not well served by the base classes. Multiclassing is a poor fit to build some concepts, as is a prestige class. Prestige classes are particularly poor fits for something like the Duelist, for example. The Duelist shouldn't be a concept that you have to graduate to, it should be a combat option on par with that offered by the fighter class, or the barbarian class. The other thread focused particularly on the "swashbuckler" as a great example of a missing core concept for a class.
• The idea that multiclassing gives you penalties that "are the price you pay for versatility" is a non sequitur. When desiring a concept such as the swashbuckler, you don't want versatility, you just want a concept not covered by the core rules. To constantly hear "that's the price you pay for versatility" is kinda annoying when I complain that a fighter/rogue character isn't a good swashbuckler because it gives you all kinds of class features that have nothing to do with your concept, and doesn't give you some basic, obvious features that should feature into your concept.
• My preferred solution, and luckily by pruning from what's in print this isn't terribly difficult to do, is to expand the list of alternate core classes considerably, or/and admit core classes that are much more flexible than most of the core classes in the PHB. Some particular favorites of mine include the Unfettered from Arcana Unearthed, the Wildlander and Defender from Midnight, and the Courier from Rokugan, for instance.
• Where does that leave prestige classes, then, and how do they fit into the picture? I think Prestige classes are fine as long as certain parameters are followed:
  • Relatively few in number.
  • Represent a concept that requires considerable work, experience and training to realize so it makes sense that you can't take levels in it at first level, OR
  • Represent a specific campaign organization whose members are known for their particular (and unique) abilities.

 

[BryonD]

Hey Joshua,

Well stated position. I think that is a eliquent alternative.

 

[Hardhead]

That is seriously munchkinized/rules lawyered. I would rule that at least the mysticism and paladin bonus are identical and don't stack. I'd be tempted to say that about the warmarshall bonus too.

The Mysticism and Paladin bonuses don't stack - but he only has them from Mysticism, anyway. The Warmarshal's specifically stacks, as it's a named bonus.

He may be invulnerable to magic, but a cha-draining monster attack or poison screws him good....

Even if you're feeling less vindictive, the dude's not exactly a combat powerhouse...seperate him from the party, or just ambush with a big-hitting monster, and you've got a situation where those saves mean jack.

Poison? There's no chance he'd fail the saves for poison. As for CHA-draining, well, yeah, but how often should I be putting him up against CHA-draining foes? It'd get a little ridiculous after a while.

So he has good saves? Big deal. It looks like he designed this character in such a way as for that to happen. Plus if he has a really high charisma he will be lacking elsewhere, along with the fact that those prestige classes hit him in other places.

He has high saves, not high SR. If he makes every save 100% of the time good for him, that was probably one of his goals. So very many spells dont allow for saves though, or saves still have some other effect, or some other part of his character took a hit in order to get him there. Let him enjoy what he has.

Actually, he does have SR, being a drow. But that's neither here nor there. I actually disallowed the Templar, or else he'd have whatever-that-ability-is that gives you the equivalent of Evasion for Fort and Will saves too. It could be worse.

Getting high saving throws is one of the very lesser evils of the prc/multiclassing system. There are easy fixes to the latter, and as to the former.. It looks like a very high level character (I dont know what warmarshal is, sounds pretty cool, but contemplative requires a min level of 11) and that character is good at a few things. Nothing wrong with that.

Warmarshal is a base class from the mini's handbook. He only has a level or two in it. And no, he doesn't really lack anywhere. He casts only a level or so less than a Cleric. Thanks to Divine Shield and various cleric buffs, he's next-to-unhitable in the AC department (can get his AC in the mid-40s at 14th level), and oh yeah, by casting spells like Divine Power and whatnot, he's just as good of a fighter as the fighter.

How would you feel about a paladin who had a cloak of resistance +5 and cha as his highest stat by far? Same situation, nearly unbeatable saves in most cases.

I find that defensiveness is the Paladin's only big advantage. This character is good defensively. And probably the second best offensively as well.

Sorry if this came off rude or something I dont know anything about the rest of the character obviously, it just seems like a complaint that a character was designed to so something special, but might get shut down punitively at some point (like saying the two bonuses overlap rather than stack) and that bothers me quite a bit If the pc goes his entire carear to be good something, let them be good at that thing.

This character was designed to be good at everything. And it is.

 

[Desdichado]

Hey Joshua,

Well stated position. I think that is a eliquent alternative.

Thanks! It works well for me, obviously.

 

[Scion]

Actually, he does have SR, being a drow.

Warmarshal is a base class from the mini's handbook. He only has a level or two in it. And no, he doesn't really lack anywhere. He casts only a level or so less than a Cleric. Thanks to Divine Shield and various cleric buffs, he's next-to-unhitable in the AC department (can get his AC in the mid-40s at 14th level), and oh yeah, by casting spells like Divine Power and whatnot, he's just as good of a fighter as the fighter.

This character was designed to be good at everything. And it is.

He's a drow (2 levels behind) and 2 levels in warmarshal (from what you said it sounds like another 2 levels behind in casting) that makes him at least 4 levels behind in casting from an equivalent caster of his effective level. This is a huge hit, 4 caster levels nets 2 full spell levels behind, which means he should have no real offensive spells to speak of, his durations will all be much lower and it'll be incredibly easy for someone to dispel his buffs. His turning is nothing to speak of (cleric level only, so min 5 levels behind in this department from an equalivalent level cleric).

Definately not good at everything Though as a base cleric type with another clericy class they default to being best or second best at most everything anyway, so no problem there. As far as I can tell one good dispel magic will take him down a few pegs, and even with the drow SR (which is 10 + char level if I remember correctly) spells that only get negated with sr should still be pretty effective.

Sounds like a pretty nice, well thought out character. Hopefully he has background to go with the various classes and worked for them with roleplaying.

One can only hope at this point Your guys are level 13+ it seems from the above, with this guy casting at leve 9+ if I am reading into things correctly. Just trying to get a feel for the level adjustments.

BTW do you like the miniatures handbook? from what I can tell the classes are either hit or miss in big ways.

 

[Kemrain]

I'm planning to take a PrC in my current campaign that specializes the Rogue class in stealth, at the cost of nearly all of their combat abilities. A Rogue with poor attack bonus, Poor reflex (Good will), No Sneak attack, 6 skillpoints per level, and some nice stat-based bonuses to skills, along with Canny defense and (eventually) Hide in Plain Sight is a decent tradeoff, IMO.

PrC's can be as balanced or as unbalanced as you make them. My current character is a Rogue 4, Fighter 1, Ranger 1, and he'll be taking a level of Mage (new core sorcerer-replacement) soon. Not because of the benefits it will net him, but because he can recieve the training, and wants it. Sure, he'll be less effective than many other single-classed characters, and if he takes the new PrC afer that he'll basically be undoing those levels of Fighter and Ranger, but it's how the character is progressing, and that's a wondeful thing.

Not all PrC's are tied to an organization, even if they could be. Someone has to MAKE a PrC before they can teach others to do the same things. That can give a lot of flavor to a game.

It really depends on what you're looking for in your games. Personally, I like PrC's, because they can give you things that no other class gets (Such as other Stat bonuses to skills, or the ability to break a rule). They're great because they can strengthen the campaign world with the organizations that are based around/spring up around them. For what they're worth, with a little attention, you can get a great deal out of PrC's.

- Kemrain the Rogue 4, Fighter 1, Ranger 2, Mage 1, Monk 1, Keeper 5, because it works.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Basically, the character is great at a lot, but he is hardly good at everything.

Hit him with dispel magic, hit him with some Cha-drain. In fact, an undead creature would almost be the perfect counterpoint (without a full cleric turning potential, he's pretty much boned against undead of his CR).

Of course, that's only really a 'fix.' But if you want to challenge your PC's, especially at a high level, you shouldn't be affraid to target their weaknesses, because their strengths are going to be insurmountable much of the time. At 13th level, in addition, the PC's are (probably) such movers and shakers in the campaign world that enemies of them would know their powers, know their limitations, and design specifically against them.

Indeed, your character is a great defensive artist and, with time to buff, can be a decently competent combatant (though I'd question what your party fighter spent his feats doing if this mook is outclasing him. ). So if your foe is bright, it'll take the buffs away from him, and target him with things that either don't allow saves, or where even saving against it harms him. Even if the foe has never met him before, a few rounds into combat should be able to determine how this guy is honed (especially when he's lit up like a christmas tree with magic).

Sounds like the guy munched out...but far, far from unbeatable. Touch AC? Hit points? Capacity to do much beyond sit there and look pretty and be immune when foes get smart about dispelling and anti-magic?

Dispel his magic, or ambush him. Grab him with a net. Then send in the big muscle to beat on him.

Really, isn't that the usual strategy for enemies against higher-level monks and clerics? He doesn't seem much more mighty than them...

 

[Nighthawk]

My view on this is very much a self-serving one. I tend to see this topic, amongst many others, as much ado about nothing. It's an optional game mechanic that is fixated on far too much by those who do not favor them, IMO. I do not assume that "balance" exists in the game, especially in a class-based game with multiple roles available to the players. In that sense, I see the game rules as being more aimed at having a viable functioning group of characters, not one geared for character-to-character measurements.

The reason I have a self-serving view for Prestige Classes (along with core classes, magic items, monsters, spells, etc.) is that I look at them as a tool for the gamer, whether one is a player of a gamemaster. If someone can be interested in something about the game because of the Prestige Class, then I am all for it, whether it be an idea, a concept, or something else. Not everyone playes the game the same way. People have different motivations and reasons for playing the game. So long as they are playing, and the group is content, I see no problem with this.

Many gamers have been playing for a long time. Sometimes, difference can create interest and hopefully enjoyment. IMO, that's something Prestige Classes can provide, with varying degrees of effort by the people involved. I hope to see many more Prestige Classes, bland or not. Yes, I feel the same way about other "crunchy" bits as well. See something, have your interest sparkled, and pick and choose, and work it out. That has my vote, so to speak.