D&D 5E Preview of the Witch Class I am working on
Quickleaf
Legend
[MENTION=6803713]Slit518[/MENTION] I appreciate what you're attempting, but it's a bit of a mess.
1) First, there's no clear conceptual underpinning. "Witches are all different..." "Where they get their power is a different story" OK, apart from that second sentence being thoroughly awkward English, I've taken away nothing from these sentences about what a witch actually is. Compare your opening "identity sentence" to that of the PHB Bard:
[SECTION]Whether scholar, skald, or scoundrel, a bard weaves magic through words and music to inspire allies, demoralize foes, manipulate minds, create illusions, and even heal wounds.[/SECTION]
Even the Bard, the most jack-of-all-trades D&D class, has more coherent identity in that sentence than your witch. My #1 recommendation is to go back to your design notes and create a coherent "identity sentence" for your witch class that meaningfully distinguishes it from the other classes in D&D. Why should witch be its own class? I'm not convinced yet.
2) You're walking into some very nebulous territory including a drawback built into a class – 5e very deliberately avoids doing that. Also, thematically, the idea of making a sacrifice for power skates very close to the Warlock's wheelhouse. And finally, even if I as a reader manage to accept "yeah, ok, so in this guy's world witches are about sacrificing for power", I'm faced with conditions that totally shut down my witch character...
If I'm blind, that shuts down a huge amount of spells. If I'm deaf, you have me making Concentration checks just to cast spells with verbal components (hint: that's 99% of spells). If I'm paralyzed my options are...have a donkey cart in the dungeon? Maaaybe soul-less is an ok sacrifice, but that outright treads on the Warlock's thematic wheelhouse implying a bargain with an entity.
If you insist on going this direction, have a look at Pathfinder's Oracle class to see how they handle classic tropes like "the blind oracle."
3) Origin of Power... So how is Power of the Cosmos, which you describe as "alien", different from a Great Old One patron for Warlocks? How is Power of the Oceans different from a Storm Sorcerer? How is Power of the Heavens different from the Celestial patron for Warlocks? How is Power of the Hells different from The Fiend patron for Warlocks?
There's enough ambiguity between Sorcerous Origins and Warlock Patrons, that adding a *third* class with something like that is just too much. Moreover, if you look at witchcraft traditions from Europe (the ones many gamers seek to have in mind when hearing "witch"), they often were/are synergistic, blending a mix of techniques and religious/spiritual beliefs. They might be thought of as occupying a strange niche between sorcerer, wizard, cleric, and druid. So "Origin of Power" probably isn't as relevant to that conception of witchcraft. Where does a witch's magic power come from? The answer to that might be: anywhere he or she can get it.
4) Coven is the most identifying feature you've included in your witch class. "Coven" implies a gathering of like-minded witches. That's interesting! Only the Druid alludes to a society of druids by including the Druidic language; but "Coven" has the potential to outright make a society of witches part of the class/game. However, instead you solely make it the vehicle by which to give the witch some extra spells. Eh. That's kind of lackluster and definitely doesn't take the concept in the creative direction it has the potential to expand in.
Also, including scaling Origin of Power and scaling Coven features feels a bit redundant.
One possible interesting direction to take "Coven" is to augment the witch's spellcasting when they do some kind of circle magic with other spellcasters, or have non-spellcasters providing an offering of some kind (blood, gold, food, a dance, a song, lock of hair, etc).
5) Spell List. If you want to get really clear about what a witch is, creating the class spell list could help. For instance, witches could easily be imagined to cast charm person, cure wounds, and call lightning! They could easily break the usual divide where arcane-casters get fireball and divine casters get cure wounds -- so you'll want to put some thought into what spells a witch *shouldn't* get, which spells would be *outside* a witch's wheelhouse.
1) First, there's no clear conceptual underpinning. "Witches are all different..." "Where they get their power is a different story" OK, apart from that second sentence being thoroughly awkward English, I've taken away nothing from these sentences about what a witch actually is. Compare your opening "identity sentence" to that of the PHB Bard:
[SECTION]Whether scholar, skald, or scoundrel, a bard weaves magic through words and music to inspire allies, demoralize foes, manipulate minds, create illusions, and even heal wounds.[/SECTION]
Even the Bard, the most jack-of-all-trades D&D class, has more coherent identity in that sentence than your witch. My #1 recommendation is to go back to your design notes and create a coherent "identity sentence" for your witch class that meaningfully distinguishes it from the other classes in D&D. Why should witch be its own class? I'm not convinced yet.
2) You're walking into some very nebulous territory including a drawback built into a class – 5e very deliberately avoids doing that. Also, thematically, the idea of making a sacrifice for power skates very close to the Warlock's wheelhouse. And finally, even if I as a reader manage to accept "yeah, ok, so in this guy's world witches are about sacrificing for power", I'm faced with conditions that totally shut down my witch character...
If I'm blind, that shuts down a huge amount of spells. If I'm deaf, you have me making Concentration checks just to cast spells with verbal components (hint: that's 99% of spells). If I'm paralyzed my options are...have a donkey cart in the dungeon? Maaaybe soul-less is an ok sacrifice, but that outright treads on the Warlock's thematic wheelhouse implying a bargain with an entity.
If you insist on going this direction, have a look at Pathfinder's Oracle class to see how they handle classic tropes like "the blind oracle."
3) Origin of Power... So how is Power of the Cosmos, which you describe as "alien", different from a Great Old One patron for Warlocks? How is Power of the Oceans different from a Storm Sorcerer? How is Power of the Heavens different from the Celestial patron for Warlocks? How is Power of the Hells different from The Fiend patron for Warlocks?
There's enough ambiguity between Sorcerous Origins and Warlock Patrons, that adding a *third* class with something like that is just too much. Moreover, if you look at witchcraft traditions from Europe (the ones many gamers seek to have in mind when hearing "witch"), they often were/are synergistic, blending a mix of techniques and religious/spiritual beliefs. They might be thought of as occupying a strange niche between sorcerer, wizard, cleric, and druid. So "Origin of Power" probably isn't as relevant to that conception of witchcraft. Where does a witch's magic power come from? The answer to that might be: anywhere he or she can get it.
4) Coven is the most identifying feature you've included in your witch class. "Coven" implies a gathering of like-minded witches. That's interesting! Only the Druid alludes to a society of druids by including the Druidic language; but "Coven" has the potential to outright make a society of witches part of the class/game. However, instead you solely make it the vehicle by which to give the witch some extra spells. Eh. That's kind of lackluster and definitely doesn't take the concept in the creative direction it has the potential to expand in.
Also, including scaling Origin of Power and scaling Coven features feels a bit redundant.
One possible interesting direction to take "Coven" is to augment the witch's spellcasting when they do some kind of circle magic with other spellcasters, or have non-spellcasters providing an offering of some kind (blood, gold, food, a dance, a song, lock of hair, etc).
5) Spell List. If you want to get really clear about what a witch is, creating the class spell list could help. For instance, witches could easily be imagined to cast charm person, cure wounds, and call lightning! They could easily break the usual divide where arcane-casters get fireball and divine casters get cure wounds -- so you'll want to put some thought into what spells a witch *shouldn't* get, which spells would be *outside* a witch's wheelhouse.
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Slit518
Adventurer
Quickleaf, as I explained, this is just the preview. I left things off of the preview on purpose.
A Coven actually is what a character's archetype advancement is based upon. And a little bit of advancement from Origin of Power.
I have not laid out the spell list yet, but there will be a spell list. It will take a small bit of elements from several of the casting classes.
I will try and work on my introductory sentence to make it a bit more flavorful. I just jotted something down in my writing to fill the gap for now, perhaps I should of left it blank at best.
P.S.
I also wanted to give the witch a feel of some of the witches you hear/see that have given something up.
For example, ever watch something and you have the 3 blind hags (witches)? Or as in the medieval days it was thought witches sold their soul for power? I wanted to expand upon that. A paralyzed witch could be something similar to Bran Stark being carried by Hodor. Though, that would be inconvenient for another NPC.
One thing I will say, the witch will gain something that aids them with their sacrifice at level 9. It will be one of their Origin of Power features.
A Coven actually is what a character's archetype advancement is based upon. And a little bit of advancement from Origin of Power.
I have not laid out the spell list yet, but there will be a spell list. It will take a small bit of elements from several of the casting classes.
I will try and work on my introductory sentence to make it a bit more flavorful. I just jotted something down in my writing to fill the gap for now, perhaps I should of left it blank at best.
P.S.
I also wanted to give the witch a feel of some of the witches you hear/see that have given something up.
For example, ever watch something and you have the 3 blind hags (witches)? Or as in the medieval days it was thought witches sold their soul for power? I wanted to expand upon that. A paralyzed witch could be something similar to Bran Stark being carried by Hodor. Though, that would be inconvenient for another NPC.
One thing I will say, the witch will gain something that aids them with their sacrifice at level 9. It will be one of their Origin of Power features.
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Quickleaf
Legend
It's not just a matter of your base design being ok, and your "flavor" writing needing a bit of touching up.
The problem is at the conceptual level. And that being reflected in both your design and "flavor" writing.
Slit518
Adventurer
Make a list of Pros & Cons for me, please?
Quickleaf
Legend
I just did in some detail, but to distill it to a TL;DR...
CONS
1) Lacks cohesive identity/concept. What *is* a witch? Both narratively and mechanically? And how is this different from other spellcasters? You need to answer that question first. If it were me, I'd go back to the sources of literature/media that inspired my design and catalogue the traits I feel belong to a witch. So I'd do my research. Then I'd look over those traits, compare them to D&D's lore and other spellcasting classes, and start to hone in on a unique identity narratively as well as mechanically.
2) Drawbacks too crippling / Drawbacks as class features is anti-5e design.
3) Origins of Power redundant/overlapping with Sorcererous Origins & Warlock Patrons.
4) Coven is just bonus spells. Feels like to could easily be rolled in Origins of Power or, like I'm suggesting, expanded to take over the design space you have now devoted to Origins of Power.
PROS
1) Coven has a lot of potential design space. You could really create something with a unique identity by playing this up.
OTHER CONSIDERATIONS
1) How do you decide what spells belong on a witch's spell list? Traditionally in D&D there's a divide between healers (bards, clerics, druids) and blasters (sorcerers, warlocks, wizards). It does get to be a little fuzzy, but you need to figure out (a) will your class follow that tradition, or (b) will your class break that tradition (and if so how will you balance it).
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Slit518
Adventurer
Quickleaf, look at the chart that details what a Witch will get from levels 1-20. You will see a Witch is introduced into a Coven, and at later levels gets Coven Powers. A Coven is just NOT bonus spells, I just show the bonus spells. It's a preview after all, not a, "Hey, here's the whole thing."
I appreciate you giving it a look and giving me feedback.
I appreciate you giving it a look and giving me feedback.
I'm with Quickleaf on pretty much every point.
As for the stuff you didn't show us: If we can't see it, we can't incorporate it into our critique. Basically, your preview goes from levels 1-6, and levels 1-6 have serious problems. Rather than trying to paper over those problems by showering goodies from level 7 onward, it's better to address those issues directly.
(And if you're planning this for publication, and the preview is a teaser to attract interest... man, you really need to fix levels 1-6. Potential customers are going to assess your work on the quality of what you show them. They will, quite reasonably, assume that whatever you don't show them is of similar quality to what you do.)
As for the stuff you didn't show us: If we can't see it, we can't incorporate it into our critique. Basically, your preview goes from levels 1-6, and levels 1-6 have serious problems. Rather than trying to paper over those problems by showering goodies from level 7 onward, it's better to address those issues directly.
(And if you're planning this for publication, and the preview is a teaser to attract interest... man, you really need to fix levels 1-6. Potential customers are going to assess your work on the quality of what you show them. They will, quite reasonably, assume that whatever you don't show them is of similar quality to what you do.)
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
Conceptually I like the drawback idea but I'd tone them down a lot. I.e., instead of "you can't be brought back to life" you might die after failing only two Death Saves instead of three. Yeah, yeah, I know you said "major sacrifice" but, as Quickleaf pointed out, D&D 5e characters just don't have these kinds of major flaws.
The one I thought of is "Repulsive: you suffer Disadvantage on all Charisma ability checks." (Which in a way conflicts the next thing I was going to say, which is that I think Witches should be yet-another-Charisma-class, instead of Intelligence.)
Then you need to tie each sacrifice to an ability that you gain.
I don't really like Origin of Powers. Or, at least, the origins you chose. They are too epic and grand for witches, at least my perception of them.
Overall, although I've long been wanting a Witch class, this doesn't really scratch my itch. Other than some fluff differences I don't really see how this is different from existing casters. Sure, "Origin of Powers" sounds unique, but what does it actually DO? You just get some new spells and a spell-like ability.
The one I thought of is "Repulsive: you suffer Disadvantage on all Charisma ability checks." (Which in a way conflicts the next thing I was going to say, which is that I think Witches should be yet-another-Charisma-class, instead of Intelligence.)
Then you need to tie each sacrifice to an ability that you gain.
I don't really like Origin of Powers. Or, at least, the origins you chose. They are too epic and grand for witches, at least my perception of them.
Overall, although I've long been wanting a Witch class, this doesn't really scratch my itch. Other than some fluff differences I don't really see how this is different from existing casters. Sure, "Origin of Powers" sounds unique, but what does it actually DO? You just get some new spells and a spell-like ability.
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
I'm not sure that I'm reading this right.
I can't find where it states what ability witches use for spellcasting. How to calculate spell DCs, numbers of spells prepared, basic stuff like that.
The spell system could probably do with some clearing up: from my initial reading it looked like the witch gets full spellcasting plus autoscaling short rest based slots as a warlock does.
Quickleaf's points about the thematics also make sense: as it stands the write-up looks more like an amalgamation of several existing classes rather than a new and unique one.
I can't find where it states what ability witches use for spellcasting. How to calculate spell DCs, numbers of spells prepared, basic stuff like that.
The spell system could probably do with some clearing up: from my initial reading it looked like the witch gets full spellcasting plus autoscaling short rest based slots as a warlock does.
Quickleaf's points about the thematics also make sense: as it stands the write-up looks more like an amalgamation of several existing classes rather than a new and unique one.
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