Preview: The Warden

[Rechan]

If there is a secondary striker role about them, it seems more about enhanced mobility than it is doling out the damage. But certainly, rangers and rogues have little to worry about with respect to wardens supplanting them as the group's main striker.

I was thinking more in comparison to the Two-Handed fighter, or the Strength-based Paladin, which are intended to be Defender (striker).

 

[fba827]

Does anything stop you from assuming multiple forms at once?

I don't have my books handy so I can't say for certain, but does the Polymorph keyword somehow factor in here to say only one Polymorph effect at a time? (kind of like you can only have one Stance or one Rage at a time)

This is not a playtest though, but a preview. Does that mean it is more likely to be already set and unlikely to change?

You are correct, it is a preview, not a playtest. The thing is already pretty much signed and sealed (and probably preping for the printers at this point). But I'm sure WotC would still take any feedback into consideration for updates/errata if it's a frequent comment/concern.

...oh and did you see th HIT POINTS!!!

I consider the AC/Hp thing a wash (sure, more HP but on average lower AC than a typical fighter by a couple points). But having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if the Warden burns through that extra HP. It's marking ability can normally mark multiple targets, which means more targets will be aiming for it (than say a fighter that only has one marked at a time, not counting the occasional power that lets it attack and mark multiples). So unless your enemies don't usually target the PC that marked it, then the Warden will be burning through those extra HP.

In other points of comparison ...
the fighters daily power damage seems to scale up faster (level 1 daily is already at 2W whereas the warden's level 1 daily is at 1W, don't know how far that scaling difference extends at further levels).
the fighter has a better to hit by a +1 for weapon talent (though both classes primarily attack AC)
the warden gets a more varied and stronger use of marking (can mark more, gets another application of what it can do to marked targets instead of just hitting, can cause a status effect in addition to hitting). it's attack against a mark does target Fort but i guess that evens out with the fact that fort is generally 1-2 points lower than ac, accounted for the lack of fighter weapon talent.

I pretty much boil the defenders down to ...
Fighter: excellent at straight forward single target to hit and high damage
Swordmage: good at multiple target attacks but moderate damage
Warden: good at single-target to hit, moderate damage, more conditions/effects

(leaving the other defender, paladins, out of this since i have never really read through it much)

Of course, that is just based on a single first read through with no actual play involved. I reserve the right to change my opinions when I read it again later

 

[Spatula]

I don't see how this just isn't flat-out better than the fighter at being a defender. You auto-mark everyone adjacent. You get the same interrupt when a marked foe attacks someone that's not you - except that you target Fort instead of AC, and give everyone CA vs the enemy. Or you can pin them down out to a range of 5 (I'm guessing you can't do both). Plus, you get 2 saves every round (possibly avoiding negative conditions flat-out) and have more hit points. As mentioned previously, the AC is a wash due to Guardian Might.

The power creep keeps on creeping on...

 

[jasin]

It's very clear that the Warden, by intention (given the class's fluff) is all defense. They don't bring the hurt (all but 1 of the encounter powers do 2[W]),

Isn't 2[W] standard for low-level encounter powers? There is a significant number of powers that deal just 1[W].

How much damage does that one power that's not 2[W] do?

 

[Rechan]

Isn't 2[W] standard for low-level encounter powers? There is a significant number of powers that deal just 1[W].

How much damage does that one power that's not 2[W] do?

You seem to misunderstand.

All the Warden's Encounter (sans one 3rd level Encounter power) do 1[W]+stat.

Which is why I said they're not all that big on the damage-dealing.

 

[Belphanior]

I don't see how this just isn't flat-out better than the fighter at being a defender. You auto-mark everyone adjacent. You get the same interrupt when a marked foe attacks someone that's not you - except that you target Fort instead of AC, and give everyone CA vs the enemy. Or you can pin them down out to a range of 5 (I'm guessing you can't do both). Plus, you get 2 saves every round (possibly avoiding negative conditions flat-out) and have more hit points. As mentioned previously, the AC is a wash due to Guardian Might.

The power creep keeps on creeping on...

Not at all.

The fighter's AC is pretty much always 17+ simply by wearing scale. The warder will have somewhere around 15-16. Both can use shields so they're irrelevant. One or two points of extra AC definitely help out a defender. The fighters in my games have great AC and I keep just narrowly missing them far too often. The math of 4e is just built that way.

The fighter can stop people from moving altogether. On the other hand, nothing stops you from shifting away from a warder and then using a ranged attack against somebody. At worst you're slowed afterwards, but that's symbolic only because next turn you just shift away again even while slowed and repeat the whole process. As a "defender" the warder is actually doing a very poor job compared to the others.

Fighters are more accurate in their attacks (very important, most effects only count on a hit).

Fighters can mark on opportunity attacks and dragonbreath, which has so far caused endless headaches for me. A good fighter is just so... unavoidable. This warder looks relatively easy to bypass. Shift away and charge at your target. You'll probably be outside of the reach of his special reaction too.

 

[Spatula]

All the Warden's Encounter (sans one 3rd level Encounter power) do 1[W]+stat.

Which is why I said they're not all that big on the damage-dealing.

Well, the numebr of [w]s is only part of it - Hungry Earth deals 1[w]+str in a close burst 1, which is going to be more than 1[w] in practice. Wildblood Vigor makes two attacks - it's Twin Strike with +Str to damage. Thunder Ram Assault follows up the main attack with a close blast 3 that also does damage. In fact, every encounter power that is not Predatory Guardian (the 2[w]) or Thunder Slam (which is positively sedate next to the other powers) involves multiple attacks and/or followup damage.

 

[Rechan]

The fighter can stop people from moving altogether. On the other hand, nothing stops you from shifting away from a warder and then using a ranged attack against somebody. At worst you're slowed afterwards, but that's symbolic only because next turn you just shift away again even while slowed and repeat the whole process. As a "defender" the warder is actually doing a very poor job compared to the others.

Warden's Grasp:

Close burst 5
Effect: You slide the target 1 square. The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn

So correct, a monster could shift away and attack with ranged. Then the Warden uses Warden's Grasp. On the Warden's turn, he moves up to the monster, and hits. On the monster's second turn, it can only shift at the end of its turn, thereby not allowing it to get a ranged attack.

So if anything, the 'shift-ranged attack' can only happen every 2 rounds.

The Warden also has the benefit of marking multiple opponents, then getting to use one of his mark powers as an immediate interrupt; it grants a little more variety in who's getting popped if they don't attack him.

In addition, dropping all the difficult terrain and making enemies slowed/unable to flee him is fairly defender-y, because it prevents skirmishers from running away/past him and engaging his allies.

 

[Spatula]

The fighter can stop people from moving altogether. On the other hand, nothing stops you from shifting away from a warder and then using a ranged attack against somebody. At worst you're slowed afterwards

Slowed and cannot shift. And cannot avoid - Warden's Grasp has no hit roll.

I suppose the AC point is true, the Warden will be a point or two behind the fighter. With the extra hp, I suppose that cancels out.

Fighters are more accurate in their attacks (very important, most effects only count on a hit).

Targeting Fort is better than a +1 to hit - granted only some Warden powers are vs Fort, but this seems to be a wash.

 

[jasin]

You seem to misunderstand.

All the Warden's Encounter (sans one 3rd level Encounter power) do 1[W]+stat.

Which is why I said they're not all that big on the damage-dealing.

Ah, that is indeed on the light side. The post I replied to said "(all but 1 of the encounter powers do 2[W])", which gave much the opposite impression.