Preview: The Warden

[Rechan]

How? The slowing and shift-stopping effect only lasts till the end of it's turn, not until the end of its NEXT turn.

I'm sorry, I misread the power.

When I saw "Cannot shift until the end of its turn", I thought that meant that it can only use a move action after using a standard/minor (as in, attack, then move, rather then the reverse).

 

[Cadfan]

Its a new class, so inevitably someone is convinced that its power creep.

I don't see it though. The Warden's marking is sub par. It doesn't actually stop a bad guy from shifting away and attacking your allies- if your enemy wants to do that, the only thing making the Warden's mark better than a vanilla NPC mark is that next round, after the enemy has already attacked your ally once, it will be harder for your enemy to do it a second time. And if your enemy attacks you in the next round, he can switch to your ally again.

Contrast that to the Fighter's absolute movement denial (shift > attack, move > boosted opportunity attack that stops movement) and I think the Fighter is still my favorite. Particularly with Footwork Lure in the game so that I can put my enemies in the spot I want, then keep them there.

Honestly, the Warden's basic chassis seems sub par. Its at wills are lame, its stat block is vanilla except for the hit points, which are offset by a lame AC (you can get two handed fighter AC by using a one handed weapon and a heavy shield, yay...), and even the hit points aren't THAT high. Its basically just Toughness as a bonus feat. The only really good thing is the neat synergy between elevated hit points, a class ability that makes Second Wind more attractive, and an extra saving throw per round. The extra save means that your enemies probably have to go through your HP to kill you instead of bypassing it, and the other two make that harder to accomplish.

The Warden seems to be good because of his Forms.

The Forms are definitely where its at. The attacks they grant are average (average is ok), but the effects are worthwhile. Look at the effects for Form of the Relentless Panther:

+2 Reflex
+1 attack v enemies you have marked
Move action: shift 2

I think that's enough to make the Warden worthwhile instead of a below average chassis that tanks like a brick but doesn't accomplish much.

 

[Cadfan]

This is built using standard array, which is how my group rolls.

I don't think he's broken. AC is two points behind a comparatively armed fighter. Attack is behind by one. I selected powers that create difficult terrain to increase his "stickiness" quotient. Thematically, I envisioned this guy as a bit of a World Serpent cultist, who favors energy themed powers instead of nature themes. Odds are that his feat choice would be dramatically different with the actual PHBII available, since the PHBI is filled with martial flavored feats. I probably wouldn't even choose a weapon focus for him, in favor of just using whatever the best item I find happens to be.

[sblock]Level 4 Dragonborn Earthstrength Warden

Initiative +3
Move 6

HP 57
Blood 23
Surge 13
Surges 11

AC 20
Fort 17
Ref 15
Will 15

Str 19
Con 15
Dex 12
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 15

Feats
Toughness
Enlarged Dragon Breath
Weapon Focus: Axes
Superior Weapon Proficiency: Waraxe

Abilities
Font of Life
Guardian Might: Earthstrength
Nature's Wrath
+1 attack rolls while bloodied

Notable Skills
Athletics +8
Endurance +6
History +4
Intimidate +11
Nature +7

Standard attack data: +8, 1d12+6

Marking At Wills
Warden's Fury: v fort, target grants combat advantage
Warden's Grasp: pull 1, slow, close burst 5

At Will Attacks
Strength of Stone: +2 temporary hp
Thorn Strike: reach +1, pull 1

Encounter Attacks
R: Dragon Breath: +8 v ref, close blast 3 or 5, 1d6+2 lightning
1: Hungry Earth: v fort, close burst 1, creates difficult terrain
3: Earthgrasp Strike: prone until end of my next turn, 1d10+4* upon standing

Daily
1: Form of Winter's Herald: +1 ac, resist cold 5, difficult terrain radius 2
Also close burst 1, immobilize (save ends), miss: half, immobilize one round

Utility
2: Mountain Lion Step: encounter, ignore difficult terrain one round

Gear
+1 waraxe
+1 hide armor
+1 amulet
heavy shield

*Technically this should be 1d10+6. Houserule: weapon damage bonuses only apply to attacks with [W].[/sblock]

 

[Sir Brennen]

My only question is, when a tiefling Warder uses Form of the Fearsome Ram, how can you tell?

 

[catsclaw227]

My only question is, when a tiefling Warder uses Form of the Fearsome Ram, how can you tell?

Or a Minotaur, for that matter.

(I am talking about the DDI Dragon Issue 369 version, not the MM version. We don't use the MM versions of monster NPCs as PCs.)

 

[MrMyth]

I don't see how this just isn't flat-out better than the fighter at being a defender. You auto-mark everyone adjacent. You get the same interrupt when a marked foe attacks someone that's not you - except that you target Fort instead of AC, and give everyone CA vs the enemy. Or you can pin them down out to a range of 5 (I'm guessing you can't do both). Plus, you get 2 saves every round (possibly avoiding negative conditions flat-out) and have more hit points. As mentioned previously, the AC is a wash due to Guardian Might.

1) The fighter probably has better AC. Heavy Armor > Light Armor + Secondary Stat.
2) The fighter probably has better to-hit, due to Fighter Weapon Talent.
3) The fighter is able to punish enemies who shift away. The Warden gets to walk them slink out of reach - and while Warden's Grasp will bring them back and stop them from doing so in the following round, that means that against smart enemies, they are about half as effective at punishing foes as the fighter.
4) The fighter also gets to outright prevent enemies from moving away. That is powerful - especially against solos who will gladly soak up a hit to go prey on weaker party members.

All in all, I think the balance is a good one.

Defense-wise:
The Warden has the edge here, with more hp and probably only slightly less AC. Font of Life is really what pushes them over the edge - and honestly, is the only power I am remotely worried about in this class, since shrugging off conditions is extremely powerful in 4E.

Offense-wise:
The Fighter has the edge here. The Warden's retaliation is more potent, but also easier to avoid. The Fighter is very hard to escape, and their greater accuracy is not to be underestimated. The Fighter At-wills seem more potent, and more focused on damage - which again, helps encourage enemy's to attack them rather than ignore them. The Warden isn't completely left in the dust, though, due to how easy it is for them to place their marks - and Warden's Fury is usable with a reach weapon, unlike a Fighter's retaliation. The Warden giving up some defense to catch up on offense, on the other hand, seems like even more confirmation of the balance between the two.

 

[Belphanior]

and while Warden's Grasp will bring them back and stop them from doing so in the following round, that means that against smart enemies, they are about half as effective at punishing foes as the fighter.

As Baumi pointed out, it doesn't even do that. It does:
"You slide the target 1 square. The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn."

I hope they forgot a word in there, but all Warden's Grasp effectively does is slide someone. The slowing effect ends at the end of their turn. And since it's a reaction, it will usually only ever be applied on their turn - after they've already moved and attacked. Only in a limited amount of situations will it have more effect.

 

[Alikar]

As Baumi pointed out, it doesn't even do that. It does:
"You slide the target 1 square. The target is slowed and cannot shift until the end of its turn."

I hope they forgot a word in there, but all Warden's Grasp effectively does is slide someone. The slowing effect ends at the end of their turn. And since it's a reaction, it will usually only ever be applied on their turn - after they've already moved and attacked. Only in a limited amount of situations will it have more effect.

True, however I think the Warden is a defender in the sense that they let others attack. I think this is very useful for pulling a creature off a wizard or ranger before their turn. Sure you didn't stop the attack, but if they are 4 or 5 away the fighter wouldn't have stopped them either. At least this lets the ranged classes perform a ranged attack without pulling out a power or suffering from an opportunity attack.

 

[Spatula]

I don't see it though. The Warden's marking is sub par. It doesn't actually stop a bad guy from shifting away and attacking your allies

Neither does the fighter - the movement stopping ability only works with movement-provoked OAs.

I missed the bit about the slow & shift only lasting until the end of the target's turn. That's definitely a lot weaker than I had originally thought it was, so my initial reaction was probably an overreaction.

Its at wills are lame

Aside from Thorn Strike, I agree there.

and even the hit points aren't THAT high. Its basically just Toughness as a bonus feat.

It's twice as good as Toughness actually, but spread out over levels instead of delivered upfront.

 

[Kralin Thornberry]

Also, don't forget, that the INT/DEX will continue to raise AC as long as the character isn't wearing heavy armor, something that the Warden doesn't do. So as they raise their 2 primary abilities (STR & CON/WIS), they also raise HP AND AC, something none of the other defenders can do (except maybe the swordmage which can raise INT as long as he doesn't wear heavy armor).

It seems that PHB2 is going to have a lot of shifty, slider type of characters (Bard can slide 1 sq. when he heals you).